Chord symbols

[j***@gmail.com]

When you see chord symbols in a lead sheet/sheet music do they refer
to the overall harmony including the melody or what the main
accompaniment instrument is playing or what? Many times it seems that
the guitar just doesn't sound good playing many of those chords.

If there is a C13b9#9 does it mean that some instruments are playing
some of the notes and other are playing other notes so that's the
overall sound? For example: Guitar = Db F G, Piano = Eb A G , Bass = C
Bb, Vocals = E.

I'm confused if I should play the complete chord, as much as possible
on guitar, or if even just one or two notes out of the chord will
suffice even if that changes the overall harmony a bit. Say from a
C13b9#9 to a C7#9.

[LJS]

Post by j***@gmail.com
When you see chord symbols in a lead sheet/sheet music do they refer
to the overall harmony including the melody or what the main
accompaniment instrument is playing or what? Many times it seems that
the guitar just doesn't sound good playing many of those chords.

Yes. All of the above. the spellings often suggest more of a scale
that is to be played over the root or basic harmony. You are reay free
to use any combination of those notes. Some combinations will of
course sound better than others and often one of the altered notes is
because of the melody. So, yes. All of those are true. Plus some
more.

Post by j***@gmail.com
If there is a C13b9#9 does it mean that some instruments are playing
some of the notes and other are playing other notes so that's the
overall sound? For example: Guitar = Db F G, Piano = Eb A G , Bass = C
Bb, Vocals = E.

Yes. Again on the button. But it can also be just some of the notes,
not necessarially all of them have to be present, but the alterned
tones are generally there someplace but not absolutely necessary. Good
part writing is really more important but in most cases, the atered
tones help to define the inherent function of the chord in question
and this helps to put the proper scaes to be played over this harmony
in to a better perspective.

For example. G7-9 Cm the flat 9th or Ab and the third of Bnat and the
rest of the tones in the progression spells out the C minor harmonic
scale. When you see the isoated chord of G7-9 the function of this
type of chord is usualy Dominant. so you have lots of implications
that can be infered by the written spelling of the chord. As to the
actual notes to play. That is where your ear comes in and that is the
real training that is necessary to be a successful player.

Post by j***@gmail.com
I'm confused if I should play the complete chord, as much as possible
on guitar, or if even just one or two notes out of the chord will
suffice even if that changes the overall harmony a bit. Say from a
C13b9#9 to a C7#9.

Yes, again you are right. You are confused. That last paragraph might
help to clear your head.
Function. That is the important thing in the harmony. Where the chord
came from and most important where it is leading your ear to where it
wants to go.

If it is a composed piece, those two C chords you list would be
written out in the music and you would really play only what you saw
written for the guitar part. The notes shoud be written out and the
symbol is only an anayzing tool. but it is for the musicians to use
their ears to know what are the important notes for them to play and
this can change from night to night with the same musicians and can
also change when ever there is a change in personelle.
You just learn to listen and how to make music on your instrument with
the tools that you have at your disposal. In an improvisatory setting
those two chords are exactly the same harmony. Their function are the
same. In most cases as a guitarist, you can play either the basic
chords that function as needed in the music. Another way is to play
just the color chords. Or to even play contrapuntally with the scales
that the anaysis of the chords suggest.

This, of course, can be done from either analysis, just hearing it, or
a combination of the two.

Look at it this way. If you saw that C13b9#9 chord you could play the
A Db D# and possiby an En and/or a Bb or Bn depending on where this
chord came from and where it is going. But that is 7 notes implies.
you ony have 6 strings. What kind of fingering would produce that and
what kind of group could you be in where you had to pay ALL of those
notes? and if you think about the part writing, what 5 or 6 notes came
before them and what 5 or 6 come after them, and how are you going to
make them smooth lines. in reality you would generally be better to
use 2 to 4 note voicings mostly on the highest 4 strings. get a couple
of melodic fragments and fill in the tones from the implied scales and
just make the inner parts make a little bit of sense.

The function of the chords is usualy set by the bass player anyway.
That is his job and yours is to accompany the melody with a clear
sense of what the harmony is. The listener is not stupid, they only
need a hint if it is a good hint of what the tonality is and they will
feel safe and enjoy your choices of notes to play. Your ear will be
your guide if you learn how to listen to what the other guy is playing
and you play something different that fits with what they are doing.

LJS

[iL_weReo]

Post by LJS

Post by j***@gmail.com
When you see chord symbols in a lead sheet/sheet music do they refer
to the overall harmony including the melody or what the main
accompaniment instrument is playing or what? Many times it seems that
the guitar just doesn't sound good playing many of those chords.

Yes. All of the above. the spellings often suggest more of a scale
that is to be played over the root or basic harmony. You are reay free
to use any combination of those notes. Some combinations will of
course sound better than others and often one of the altered notes is
because of the melody. So, yes. All of those are true. Plus some
more.

Post by j***@gmail.com
If there is a C13b9#9 does it mean that some instruments are playing
some of the notes and other are playing other notes so that's the
overall sound? For example: Guitar = Db F G, Piano = Eb A G , Bass = C
Bb, Vocals = E.

Yes. Again on the button.  But it can also be just some of the notes,
not necessarially all of them have to be present, but the alterned
tones are generally there someplace but not absolutely necessary. Good
part writing is really more important but in most cases, the atered
tones help to define the inherent function of the chord in question
and this helps to put the proper scaes to be played over this harmony
in to a better perspective.
For example. G7-9 Cm the flat 9th or Ab and the third of Bnat and the
rest of the tones in the progression spells out the C minor harmonic
scale. When you see the isoated chord of G7-9 the function of this
type of chord is usualy Dominant. so you have lots of implications
that can be infered by the written spelling of the chord. As to the
actual notes to play. That is where your ear comes in and that is the
real training that is necessary to be a successful player.

Post by j***@gmail.com
I'm confused if I should play the complete chord, as much as possible
on guitar, or if even just one or two notes out of the chord will
suffice even if that changes the overall harmony a bit. Say from a
C13b9#9 to a C7#9.

Yes, again you are right. You are confused. That last paragraph might
help to clear your head.
Function. That is the important thing in the harmony. Where the chord
came from and most important where it is leading your ear to where it
wants to go.
If it is a composed piece, those two C chords you list would be
written out in the music and you would really play only what you saw
written for the guitar part. The notes shoud be written out and the
symbol is only an anayzing tool. but it is for the musicians to use
their ears to know what are the important notes for them to play and
this can change from night to night with the same musicians and can
also change when ever there is a change in personelle.
You just learn to listen and how to make music on your instrument with
the tools that you have at your disposal. In an improvisatory setting
those two chords are exactly the same harmony. Their function are the
same. In most cases as a guitarist, you can play either the basic
chords that function as needed in the music. Another way is to play
just the color chords. Or to even play contrapuntally with the scales
that the anaysis of the chords suggest.
This, of course, can be done from either analysis, just hearing it, or
a combination of the two.
Look at it this way. If you saw that C13b9#9 chord you could play the
A Db D# and possiby an En and/or a Bb or Bn depending on where this
chord came from and where it is going. But that is 7 notes implies.
you ony have 6 strings. What kind of fingering would produce that and
what kind of group could you be in where you had to pay ALL of those
notes? and if you think about the part writing, what 5 or 6 notes came
before them and what 5 or 6 come after them, and how are you going to
make them smooth lines.  in reality you would generally be better to
use 2 to 4 note voicings mostly on the highest 4 strings. get a couple
of melodic fragments and fill in the tones from the implied scales and
just make the inner parts make a little bit of sense.
The function of the chords is usualy set by the bass player anyway.
That is his job and yours is to accompany the melody with a clear
sense of what the harmony is. The listener is not stupid, they only
need a hint if it is a good hint of what the tonality is and they will
feel safe and enjoy your choices of notes to play. Your ear will be
your guide if you learn how to listen to what the other guy is playing
and you play something different that fits with what they are doing.
LJS

This is what misguided mortals talk about.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by j***@gmail.com
When you see chord symbols in a lead sheet/sheet music do they refer
to the overall harmony including the melody or what the main
accompaniment instrument is playing or what?

Your question above is not very precise so I don't really understand
exactly what it is that you're asking.
Chord symbols are a type of shorthand musical notation from which a
musician, experienced with chord symbol notation, can improvise a
harmonic accompaniment to a given melody.
They can also serve as the basis for melodic improvisation based upon
the given chord symbols.

In jazz, the chord symbols on a chart are merely a jumping off point and
are not really taken wholly literally.
I.e. A jazz musician may add/or omit notes that are implied by a chord
symbol and may also choose to slightly reharmonize the given chord(s)
based on his own tastes and experiences.
In a jazz combo there is usually only one guy playing chords while
another guy is playing or improvising single-note melodies, so there is
much harmonic freedom - and harmonic excursions away from the written
chart are frequent.

In certain types of other settings (eg. a studio pop chart or a big
band) the chord symbols are taken more literally because if they are not
taken literally the potential for harmonic or melodic clashes with the
other instruments in the ensemble is too great.
Still, even in settings like this the player gets to choose his own
voicings of the chords as well as other aspects of the part that he is
improvising.

If a writer needs a specific voicing from his players then he needs to
write it out in standard notation because chord symbol notation does not
contain that type of information.

Post by j***@gmail.com
Many times it seems that
the guitar just doesn't sound good playing many of those chords.

Then either it's a bad chart, or you're playing the chords wrong, or
you've chosen a chord voicing that is not optimal for the passage.

Post by j***@gmail.com
If there is a C13b9#9 does it mean that some instruments are playing
some of the notes and other are playing other notes so that's the
overall sound?

That chord symbol might be actualized across an ensemble the way you
describe, yes.
On a 6-string guitar, the 7-note chord specified by that chord symbol is
impossible to play.
So guitar players learn about which notes they can safely omit from a
chord and which notes are more essential for the sound of the chord.
But a piano player has no problem playing that entire chord.

Post by j***@gmail.com
For example: Guitar = Db F G, Piano = Eb A G , Bass = C
Bb, Vocals = E.

Evidently you don't fully understand what the chord symbols you're
reading are trying to tell you.
This might be why when you play from chord symbols it doesn't sound right.
C13b9#9 [aka C7(b9,#9,13)] consists of the notes:
C E G Bb Db Eb A
There is no F in this chord. The note F will destroy the essential sound
of C7.

It's fairly universal practice in jazz to omit the 5th from any chord
type that contains a P5th interval and it's quite common to omit the
5ths from chords with altered 5ths as well.
That shortens our basic C7 pitch collection to:
C E Bb
1 3 b7
Or
C Bb E
1 b7 3.
1 3 7 and 1 7 3 voicings of 7th chords are known as "shell voicings".
A shell voicing is the bare minimum a player needs to get the sound of a
7th chord into his listener's ear.
Anything else is just decoration or colour.

Most jazz players, working in a small combo, would prefer to see the
chord symbol C7 rather than C13b9#9 - and then they can decide for
themselves what extensions, if any, they will add to the chord based on
the musical context at that point in time.
But in a big band, the larger chord symbol might be telling you that the
other guys in the band are playing a Db an Eb and an A.
The chordal player can then decide to include those notes in his voicing
which, if done sensitively, will support the overall sound across the
entire band.
But more importantly, it tells the player to *not* include any maj 9ths
in his voicing because that will clash with the b9 and the #9 that the
horns are playing, and it tells him *not* to include a b13 in his
voicing because that will clash with the maj 13th elsewhere in the band.

Post by j***@gmail.com
I'm confused if I should play the complete chord, as much as possible
on guitar, or if even just one or two notes out of the chord will
suffice even if that changes the overall harmony a bit. Say from a
C13b9#9 to a C7#9.

If you're playing with a bass player, he'll usually be playing or
implying the root, so you can often omit it as well as the 5th.
That leaves you with 3 7 and/or 7 3 voicings as the basic shell of your
7th chords.
The most common way to voice extensions within a 7th chord is above the
main body of the chord.
With C13b9#9, any or all of the following voicings may be suitable for
the needs of whatever passage you are playing;
E Bb
Bb E
E Bb Db
E Bb Eb
E Bb A
E Bb Db Eb
E Bb Db A
E Bb Db Eb A
E Bb Eb A Db
E Bb A Db Eb
etc.
Bb E Db
Bb E Eb
Bb E A
Bb E Db Eb
Bb E Db A
Bb E Db Eb A
Bb E Eb A Db
Bb E A Db Eb
etc.
Note: Even with the omitted root and 5th, not all of those voicings will
be possible on guitar. But most of them will be possible.

Now, extensions don't have to be voiced above the shell.
They can also be voiced in between the 3rd and the 7th.
Egs:
E Db Bb
E Eb Bb
Bb A E
Etc., etc.

[iL_weReo]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by j***@gmail.com
When you see chord symbols in a lead sheet/sheet music do they refer
to the overall harmony including the melody or what the main
accompaniment instrument is playing or what?

Your question above is not very precise so I don't really understand
exactly what it is that you're asking.
Chord symbols are a type of shorthand musical notation from which a
musician, experienced with chord symbol notation, can improvise a
harmonic accompaniment to a given melody.
They can also serve as the basis for melodic improvisation based upon
the given chord symbols.
In jazz, the chord symbols on a chart are merely a jumping off point and
are not really taken wholly literally.
I.e. A jazz musician may add/or omit notes that are implied by a chord
symbol and may also choose to slightly reharmonize the given chord(s)
based on his own tastes and experiences.
In a jazz combo there is usually only one guy playing chords while
another guy is playing or improvising single-note melodies, so there is
much harmonic freedom - and harmonic excursions away from the written
chart are frequent.
In certain types of other settings (eg. a studio pop chart or a big
band) the chord symbols are taken more literally because if they are not
taken literally the potential for harmonic or melodic clashes with the
other instruments in the ensemble is too great.
Still, even in settings like this the player gets to choose his own
voicings of the chords as well as other aspects of the part that he is
improvising.
If a writer needs a specific voicing from his players then he needs to
write it out in standard notation because chord symbol notation does not
contain that type of information.

Post by j***@gmail.com
Many times it seems that
the guitar just doesn't sound good playing many of those chords.

Then either it's a bad chart, or you're playing the chords wrong, or
you've chosen a chord voicing that is not optimal for the passage.

Post by j***@gmail.com
If there is a C13b9#9 does it mean that some instruments are playing
some of the notes and other are playing other notes so that's the
overall sound?

That chord symbol might be actualized across an ensemble the way you
describe, yes.
On a 6-string guitar, the 7-note chord specified by that chord symbol is
impossible to play.
So guitar players learn about which notes they can safely omit from a
chord and which notes are more essential for the sound of the chord.
But a piano player has no problem playing that entire chord.

Post by j***@gmail.com
For example: Guitar = Db F G, Piano = Eb A G , Bass = C
Bb, Vocals = E.

Evidently you don't fully understand what the chord symbols you're
reading are trying to tell you.
This might be why when you play from chord symbols it doesn't sound right.
C E G Bb Db Eb A
There is no F in this chord. The note F will destroy the essential sound
of C7.
It's fairly universal practice in jazz to omit the 5th from any chord
type that contains a P5th interval and it's quite common to omit the
5ths from chords with altered 5ths as well.
C E Bb
1 3 b7
Or
C Bb E
1 b7 3.
1 3 7 and 1 7 3 voicings of 7th chords are known as "shell voicings".
A shell voicing is the bare minimum a player needs to get the sound of a
7th chord into his listener's ear.
Anything else is just decoration or colour.
Most jazz players, working in a small combo, would prefer to see the
chord symbol C7 rather than C13b9#9 - and then they can decide for
themselves what extensions, if any, they will add to the chord based on
the musical context at that point in time.
But in a big band, the larger chord symbol might be telling you that the
other guys in the band are playing a Db an Eb and an A.
The chordal player can then decide to include those notes in his voicing
which, if done sensitively, will support the overall sound across the
entire band.
But more importantly, it tells the player to *not* include any maj 9ths
in his voicing because that will clash with the b9 and the #9 that the
horns are playing, and it tells him *not* to include a b13 in his
voicing because that will clash with the maj 13th elsewhere in the band.

Post by j***@gmail.com
I'm confused if I should play the complete chord, as much as possible
on guitar, or if even just one or two notes out of the chord will
suffice even if that changes the overall harmony a bit. Say from a
C13b9#9 to a C7#9.

If you're playing with a bass player, he'll usually be playing or
implying the root, so you can often omit it as well as the 5th.
That leaves you with 3 7 and/or 7 3 voicings as the basic shell of your
7th chords.
The most common way to voice extensions within a 7th chord is above the
main body of the chord.
With C13b9#9, any or all of the following voicings may be suitable for
the needs of whatever passage you are playing;
E Bb
Bb E
E Bb Db
E Bb Eb
E Bb A
E Bb Db Eb
E Bb Db A
E Bb Db Eb A
E Bb Eb A Db
E Bb A Db Eb
etc.
Bb E Db
Bb E Eb
Bb E A
Bb E Db Eb
Bb E Db A
Bb E Db Eb A
Bb E Eb A Db
Bb E A Db Eb
etc.
Note: Even with the omitted root and 5th, not all of those voicings will
be possible on guitar. But most of them will be possible.
Now, extensions don't have to be voiced above the shell.
They can also be voiced in between the 3rd and the 7th.
E Db Bb
E Eb Bb
Bb A E
Etc., etc.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca

Misguided mortals.