Discussion:
Decoding Bach's Harmonic Language
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mDecks
2015-08-27 12:36:59 UTC
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I just posted a new video with a nice demo analyzing the Aria from Bach's Goldberg Variations played by Glenn Gould

e7m
2015-08-28 00:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by mDecks
I just posted a new video with a nice demo analyzing the Aria from Bach's Goldberg Variations played by Glenn Gould
http://youtu.be/-235DDKJfUM
Hi mDecks,
Thanks for the video its a nice presentation and looks like a fun app. At first I thought it took the sound file and analyzed the chords in an automatic process that is a bit akin to the manner a program named Transcribe does with, its keyboard view. It shows the notes that the program can percieve with the same type of wave soundtrack visual as Transcribe. I was only somewhat disappointed as I never really thought that it truely could, but I was hoping to be plesantly surprised that it did! To the best I can tell, it doesn't. That's OK but it does seem to limit the universality of the App as the user has to know and understand at least a good bit of traditional functional harmony theory in order to be able to spell the chourds, understand the figured bass notation and lots of other little details, like passing tones, and other melodic non harmonic tones. You also have to understand cadences and etc etc,

In a traditional music theory class in even a good college, you would need at least the first semester or maybe the first year of music theory to be able to use the APP. Listening to the rap on the video, I am led to believe that this is supposed to be a learning tool extrodaniare. Well, it is true that by taking the time and translating the score into the language of the App is a way to learn the piece and you do learn theory by actually getting down to the notation and translating it into a system that organizes the chords and their function. This, however, is how the old fashioned way of using Upper/lower case Roman Numeral analysis does it as well as any theory method does it so this is nothing new.

I could go on and one with the analsis process comparison to the old fashioned way but that would be even more boring than I can tolerate. I have compared enough already. (some may say I am already past that!)

Ler me take a moment to say that everything in this video shows that it is a really cool presentation of key relationships. Nice graphics. Colors, nice font n the Roman Numerals and the key areas display is nice and somewhat related to the cycle of 5ths, but the question as a musician that comes to mind is this, "How does this help me as a musician?" amd after going through the video, I have yet to find an answer.

I have my own way of teaching functional harmony, so I have to compare it to what I like to do and that is what I will attempt to do now. I will use as a comparative how I use the OLD school method of Upper/Lower Roman analysis to build a simple plan for scale selection when planning to improvise a simple jazz tune.

All of this App's roman numeral anasysis is taking verbatum from a basic chord analysis of the old school. Exactly. You need exactly the same amount of knowledge and you learn by analyzing and you need to understand and be able to use common chord modulaton and secondary dominants and cadences and all the other stuff in the video. I could easily look at a score and input what this App needs to create its presentation. And that is where the two systems differ.

This app gives you an organizational chart in a wholistic visual presentation. The old fasioned method, gives you a liner analysis of all the same information presented in simple language (once understood) that is right their, on the lead sheet, even can be written in the fake book score. and the old way you see the functionalality right there as you sight read (even) the score.

When you diviate from the original tonal center in the old style there is a little note saying something like "iv7 in Key Gmaj Becoming Key Dmaj: ii7" and you have your common chord modulation.

You immediately know that you change your ke signature from one # to 2 #'s and your new tempary key area is Dmaj so you are playing in that scale for awhile.

That's it. Even if you are sight reading, once you did the simple functional harmonic analysis, you can play through the tune and you have all the functions of the chords easily seen and you know exactly what key your functional cycle is at that present time.

you can read all the things in the fancy and beautiful visual repensation in the APP but you can also use it to PLAY and improvise in REAL TIME with the old way. The new way, not so much. Well, maybe you COULD use it if you printed out the analysis used a chart, or you could have a computer there to show you which little circle of chords you are in at that moment, but then you have to look at the wave form, with the sketch of the basic RN/Upper/Lower analysis.

THe point is, its a lovely program for fun and to talk in general terms about functional harmony but it does not live up to what I consider a useful App for actually playing music OR for building your ear. There are much better ways to do that and here we come to my personal "dog in this fight". I have a different approach.

I teach the student a simple keyboard exercise that can be learned even by someone that has never played the piano in ten minutes tops. Yes, really, tops! And then the student starts to use his/her/its ear to improvise with the right hand. The student is only thinking of if the melodic note sounds consonant or dissonant. If its dissonant, change the note to someting else, if its still dissonant try again if its consonant, then you can sit there until you decide to change it up, down, scalar or leap and continue. You see, your left hand is playing this very very simple pattern and this is played in strict time and you just let your right hand meander until you start to HEAR consonance and dissonance and you are using your own experiences to creat a melodic shape. Of course, as you do this, you are hearing the natural tonal cycle of fifths building your ear to hear functional harmony. And you are learning what our meanderings in the key. (I had not mentioned here but the student starts off on the white notes in the key of Cmaj so all the student is using at this stage is the white notes so again, we are talking of making things very simple that ANYONE can do!)

As the student gets fluent in the key of C, with this exercise, the student is learning the SOUND of ALL the chord types in the key of Cmaj. Cmaj7, Dm7, em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7 and Bm7-5 (called B half diminished in Classical music)

That is more than enough self promotion at present, you can contact me if you are interested in how this could possibly be true, but the way I look at it, if you learn to hear the cycle of fifths functional harmonic sound, and you use what ever songs or ideas that you happen to have spinning around in your head, then, as I learned studying andusing the Kodaly method, ONCE you can hear the music, you lable it and then you really know what you are talking about. You can define the chord types and talk about secondary dominants and talk about a vi7 ii7 V7 or a ii7 V7 I7 all you want. IF you can hear it, you can play it and hear it and USE it. Hear it first, learn what to call it later. Try it, its really efficient and my experience is that the weakest link in music education is EAR TRAINING. I teach the student to learn to use his ear and as he goes into it deeper, then I explain the theory he needs. If the student is going to go to a music school, I develop his ear to hear what he is doing and tailor the lessons to the topics they will be studying in college.

SO, to complete this overly long post.

I love the App, but its not really very practical to anyone but a teacher or an experienced student to show how in a limited sense (functional harmony) it can present harmonic theory in a very neat and cool looking format. But could I play a gig with improvisation using the APP, no. Can you?

IF youread this far, thanks for yor patience.

LJS
Juan I. Cahis
2015-09-06 14:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear friends, I cannot see the video in YouTube
Post by e7m
Post by mDecks
I just posted a new video with a nice demo analyzing the Aria from Bach's Goldberg Variations played by Glenn Gould
http://youtu.be/-235DDKJfUM
Hi mDecks,
Thanks for the video its a nice presentation and looks like a fun app. At first I thought it took the sound file and analyzed the chords in an automatic process that is a bit akin to the manner a program named Transcribe does with, its keyboard view. It shows the notes that the program can percieve with the same type of wave soundtrack visual as Transcribe. I was only somewhat disappointed as I never really thought that it truely could, but I was hoping to be plesantly surprised that it did! To the best I can tell, it doesn't. That's OK but it does seem to limit the universality of the App as the user has to know and understand at least a good bit of traditional functional harmony theory in order to be able to spell the chourds, understand the figured bass notation and lots of other little details, like passing tones, and other melodic non harmonic tones. You also have to understand cadences and etc etc,
In a traditional music theory class in even a good college, you would need at least the first semester or maybe the first year of music theory to be able to use the APP. Listening to the rap on the video, I am led to believe that this is supposed to be a learning tool extrodaniare. Well, it is true that by taking the time and translating the score into the language of the App is a way to learn the piece and you do learn theory by actually getting down to the notation and translating it into a system that organizes the chords and their function. This, however, is how the old fashioned way of using Upper/lower case Roman Numeral analysis does it as well as any theory method does it so this is nothing new.
I could go on and one with the analsis process comparison to the old fashioned way but that would be even more boring than I can tolerate. I have compared enough already. (some may say I am already past that!)
Ler me take a moment to say that everything in this video shows that it is a really cool presentation of key relationships. Nice graphics. Colors, nice font n the Roman Numerals and the key areas display is nice and somewhat related to the cycle of 5ths, but the question as a musician that comes to mind is this, "How does this help me as a musician?" amd after going through the video, I have yet to find an answer.
I have my own way of teaching functional harmony, so I have to compare it to what I like to do and that is what I will attempt to do now. I will use as a comparative how I use the OLD school method of Upper/Lower Roman analysis to build a simple plan for scale selection when planning to improvise a simple jazz tune.
All of this App's roman numeral anasysis is taking verbatum from a basic chord analysis of the old school. Exactly. You need exactly the same amount of knowledge and you learn by analyzing and you need to understand and be able to use common chord modulaton and secondary dominants and cadences and all the other stuff in the video. I could easily look at a score and input what this App needs to create its presentation. And that is where the two systems differ.
This app gives you an organizational chart in a wholistic visual presentation. The old fasioned method, gives you a liner analysis of all the same information presented in simple language (once understood) that is right their, on the lead sheet, even can be written in the fake book score. and the old way you see the functionalality right there as you sight read (even) the score.
When you diviate from the original tonal center in the old style there is a little note saying something like "iv7 in Key Gmaj Becoming Key Dmaj: ii7" and you have your common chord modulation.
You immediately know that you change your ke signature from one # to 2 #'s and your new tempary key area is Dmaj so you are playing in that scale for awhile.
That's it. Even if you are sight reading, once you did the simple functional harmonic analysis, you can play through the tune and you have all the functions of the chords easily seen and you know exactly what key your functional cycle is at that present time.
you can read all the things in the fancy and beautiful visual repensation in the APP but you can also use it to PLAY and improvise in REAL TIME with the old way. The new way, not so much. Well, maybe you COULD use it if you printed out the analysis used a chart, or you could have a computer there to show you which little circle of chords you are in at that moment, but then you have to look at the wave form, with the sketch of the basic RN/Upper/Lower analysis.
THe point is, its a lovely program for fun and to talk in general terms about functional harmony but it does not live up to what I consider a useful App for actually playing music OR for building your ear. There are much better ways to do that and here we come to my personal "dog in this fight". I have a different approach.
I teach the student a simple keyboard exercise that can be learned even by someone that has never played the piano in ten minutes tops. Yes, really, tops! And then the student starts to use his/her/its ear to improvise with the right hand. The student is only thinking of if the melodic note sounds consonant or dissonant. If its dissonant, change the note to someting else, if its still dissonant try again if its consonant, then you can sit there until you decide to change it up, down, scalar or leap and continue. You see, your left hand is playing this very very simple pattern and this is played in strict time and you just let your right hand meander until you start to HEAR consonance and dissonance and you are using your own experiences to creat a melodic shape. Of course, as you do this, you are hearing the natural tonal cycle of fifths building your ear to hear functional harmony. And you are learning what our meanderings in the key. (I had not mentioned here but the student starts
off on the white notes in the key of Cmaj so all the student is using at this stage is the white notes so again, we are talking of making things very simple that ANYONE can do!)
As the student gets fluent in the key of C, with this exercise, the student is learning the SOUND of ALL the chord types in the key of Cmaj. Cmaj7, Dm7, em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7 and Bm7-5 (called B half diminished in Classical music)
That is more than enough self promotion at present, you can contact me if you are interested in how this could possibly be true, but the way I look at it, if you learn to hear the cycle of fifths functional harmonic sound, and you use what ever songs or ideas that you happen to have spinning around in your head, then, as I learned studying andusing the Kodaly method, ONCE you can hear the music, you lable it and then you really know what you are talking about. You can define the chord types and talk about secondary dominants and talk about a vi7 ii7 V7 or a ii7 V7 I7 all you want. IF you can hear it, you can play it and hear it and USE it. Hear it first, learn what to call it later. Try it, its really efficient and my experience is that the weakest link in music education is EAR TRAINING. I teach the student to learn to use his ear and as he goes into it deeper, then I explain the theory he needs. If the student is going to go to a music school, I develop his ear to hear what he is
doing and tailor the lessons to the topics they will be studying in college.
SO, to complete this overly long post.
I love the App, but its not really very practical to anyone but a teacher or an experienced student to show how in a limited sense (functional harmony) it can present harmonic theory in a very neat and cool looking format. But could I play a gig with improvisation using the APP, no. Can you?
IF youread this far, thanks for yor patience.
LJS
Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Steven Charles White
2015-09-13 06:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by mDecks
I just posted a new video with a nice demo analyzing the Aria from Bach's Goldberg Variations played by Glenn Gould
http://youtu.be/-235DDKJfUM
Looks like the video has been removed by the user with no way of getting into your channel. I'd be interested in seeing the video if possible, mDecks. :)
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