An interesting article

[Vilen]

Keeping with the limits of the bass functions theme I found
interesting article "Why Bass?"
( http://www.executivebird.com/art/WhyBass.pdf )
Particularly it is said in it: " A 2002 study was done in which it was
determined that frequencies similar to those generated by organ pipes
in churches had subliminal effects on the audience. During moments of
infrasonic blasts set to a frequency of 17 Hz, participants reported
feeling increased heart rates, anxiety, and memory of emotional
loss."
That set me to idea about properties which minor triads could reveal
and influence on reputation of minor tonality. Indeed, the previous to
middle C octave embraces frequencies in diapason 123-247 Hz. It
means that fundamental (missing) frequencies of minor triads of this
important diapason belong to diapason 12-25 Hz with a.m. 17 Hz value.

Yuri Vilenkin

[Jeffery Tomas]

Post by Vilen
Keeping with the limits of the bass functions theme I found
interesting article "Why Bass?"
( http://www.executivebird.com/art/WhyBass.pdf )
Particularly it is said in it: " A 2002 study was done in which it was
determined that frequencies similar to those generated by organ pipes
in churches had subliminal effects on the audience. During moments of
infrasonic blasts set to a frequency of 17 Hz, participants reported
feeling increased heart rates, anxiety, and memory of emotional
loss."
That set me to idea about properties which minor triads could reveal
and influence on reputation of minor tonality. Indeed, the previous to
middle C octave embraces frequencies in diapason 123-247 Hz. It
means that fundamental (missing) frequencies of minor triads of this
important diapason belong to diapason 12-25 Hz with a.m. 17 Hz value.
Yuri Vilenkin

Sorry, What makes a minor or major chord has nothing to do with the
fundamental. You seem to have a flawed understanding of basic harmony.

[Vilen]

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Sorry, What makes a minor or major chord has nothing to do with the
fundamental. You seem to have a flawed understanding of basic harmony.- Zitierten Text ausblenden -

The question isn't difference between major and minor modes, but why
the minor one is considered as somewhat sad and melancholic.
Basic harmony is transient theory and missing fundamental is
scientific fact. So if the basic harmony doesn't consider missing
fundametal it is worse for former one.

Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

[Jeffery Tomas]

Post by Vilen

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Sorry, What makes a minor or major chord has nothing to do with the
fundamental. You seem to have a flawed understanding of basic harmony.-
Zitierten Text ausblenden -

The question isn't difference between major and minor modes, but why
the minor one is considered as somewhat sad and melancholic.
Basic harmony is transient theory and missing fundamental is
scientific fact. So if the basic harmony doesn't consider missing
fundametal it is worse for former one.
Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

Your claim was that somehow the fundamental created a certain emotion that
corresponded to some experimental "fact".

Your logic, in a nutshell, seems to be:

1. 17Hz was "proven" to create anxiety/etc.
2. 17Hz is the fundamental of some minor triad.
3. Therefore the sadness of the minor tonality is due to this 17Hz
frequency.

It's hard to fully understand you since you seem to be using a translator or
are not fully equipped to express yourself in English.

In any case the minor quality is solely due to the interval of a Min3rd and
P5.

The emotional meaning is somewhat irrelevant. In any case this chord has
more tension and tension is associated with those emotions. It is not always
the case that minor chords are more tense than major though as it depends on
context. In fact some major chords can be setup to sound more "sad" than
minor chords. This being due to the ambiguous nature of associating your
emotions to abstract concepts(what's sad for you is not necessarily sad for
someone else).

--

[Vilen]

Post by Jeffery Tomas

Post by Vilen

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Sorry, What makes a minor or major chord has nothing to do with the
fundamental. You seem to have a flawed understanding of basic harmony.-
Zitierten Text ausblenden -

The question isn't difference between major and minor modes, but why
the minor one is considered as somewhat sad and  melancholic.
Basic harmony is transient theory and missing fundamental is
scientific fact. So if the basic  harmony doesn't consider missing
fundametal it is worse for former one.
Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

Your claim was that somehow the fundamental created a certain emotion that
corresponded to some experimental "fact".
1. 17Hz was "proven" to create anxiety/etc.
2. 17Hz is the fundamental of some minor triad.
3. Therefore the sadness of the minor tonality is due to this 17Hz
frequency.
It's hard to fully understand you since you seem to be using a translator or
are not fully equipped to express yourself in English.
In any case the minor quality is solely due to the interval of a Min3rd and
P5.
The emotional meaning is somewhat irrelevant. In any case this chord has
more tension and tension is associated with those emotions. It is not always
the case that minor chords are more tense than major though as it depends on
context. In fact some major chords can be setup to sound more "sad" than
minor chords. This being due to the ambiguous nature of associating your
emotions to abstract concepts(what's sad for you is not necessarily sad for
someone else).
--

I had only manifested the idea how the notorious sadness of minor
music possibly may be explained. It is clear that minor music doesn't
always create the sensation of missing fundamental in diapason below
20 Hz.
Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

[Jeffery Tomas]

Post by Vilen
I had only manifested the idea how the notorious sadness of minor
music possibly may be explained. It is clear that minor music doesn't
always create the sensation of missing fundamental in diapason below
20 Hz.

Well, if that is your reasoning then it is illogical and fallacious.

Whatever "fundamental" you are talking about has nothing to do with it.
Absolute frequencies have nothing to do with the emotional connection. If it
did then we couldn't transpose a minor piece of music and it still be in
minor. Also, any relative major piece would also have to be sad.

Now, suppose that 17Hz actually has some type of effect on emotion. It is
possible then that those keys that have an acoustical root equivalent to
17Hz may be more tense keys due to this effect but it would effect both
major and minor keys. This could explain why some sense different moods in
different keys(but unlikely).

It is also very easy to test such a hypothesis by composing a piece and
transposing it and seeing if the effect creates a distinctly different mood.

[Vilen]

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Well, if that is your reasoning then it is illogical and fallacious.

Hm.

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Whatever "fundamental" you are talking about has nothing to do with it.
Absolute frequencies have nothing to do with the emotional connection. If it
did then we couldn't transpose a minor piece of music and it still be in
minor. Also, any relative major piece would also have to be sad.

It is really fallacious.
Relative major has major triads for which fundamental frequency is 4
times lesser as root one and by minor triads it is 10 times lesser.

Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

[Alain Naigeon]

"Vilen" <***@online.de> a écrit dans le message de news:
ff1e4dc3-fa34-46e5-af92-***@i6g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...

I had only manifested the idea how the notorious sadness of minor
music possibly may be explained.

I hope you failed to find such an explanation, since there are
hundreds of joyfull melodies in minor mode.
"Minor is sad" is just a cliche.

[Tom K.]

"Alain Naigeon" wrote in message news:4ef370e4$0$14962$***@news.free.fr...

"Vilen" <***@online.de> a écrit dans le message de news:
ff1e4dc3-fa34-46e5-af92-***@i6g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...

I had only manifested the idea how the notorious sadness of minor
music possibly may be explained.

I hope you failed to find such an explanation, since there are
hundreds of joyfull melodies in minor mode.
"Minor is sad" is just a cliche.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And as I.S. said:

"For I consider that music is, by its very nature, essentially powerless to
express anything at all, whether a feeling, an attitude of mind, a
psychological mood, a phenomenon of nature, etc. Expression has never been
an inherent property of music. That is by no means the purpose of its
existence. If, as is nearly always the case, music appears to express
something, this is only an illusion and not a reality. It is simply an
additional attribute which, by tacit and inveterate agreement, we have lent
it, thrust upon it, as a label, a convention – in short, an aspect which,
unconsciously or by force of habit, we have come to confuse with its
essential being."
Igor Stravinsky (1936). An Autobiography, p.53-54.

Tom

[Vilen]

there are hundreds of joyfull melodies in minor mode.
"Minor is sad" is just a cliche.

I know that. I had already written in this thread: "It is clear that
minor music doesn't
always create the sensation of missing fundamental in diapason below
20 Hz."
The question is possible greater ability of minor mode for melancholic
melodies.

Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

[Tom K.]

"Vilen" wrote in message news:cce6d8ae-a7b8-409a-a938-***@n39g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

The question is possible greater ability of minor mode for melancholic
melodies.

Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

But there are no "melancholic melodies", only emotional interpretations
which may vary from individual to individual.

Tom