Discussion:
2/4 inserts
(too old to reply)
Gill Smith
2011-08-01 09:33:29 UTC
Permalink
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time

but

does anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Tom K.
2011-08-01 12:21:01 UTC
Permalink
"Gill Smith" wrote in message news:***@brightview.co.uk...
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does anyone
know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
--

Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall rhythm
pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine one 4/4
bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.

But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds the
same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this could exist
only as a notational "inconvenience". If a strong accent was desired on the
3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an dynamic marking but to
notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be an example of what I would
call "musical illiteracy".

Tom
DonMack
2011-08-01 16:46:35 UTC
Permalink
"Tom K." wrote in message news:***@giganews.com...

"Gill Smith" wrote in message news:***@brightview.co.uk...
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does anyone
know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
--

Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall rhythm
pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine one 4/4
bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.

But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds the
same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this could exist
only as a notational "inconvenience". If a strong accent was desired on the
3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an dynamic marking but to
notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be an example of what I would
call "musical illiteracy".

------

There are cases when it may be called for. When a new section occurs it may
make better notational sense to split a bar of 4/4 into 2 2/4's.

Just hypothetically suppose a verse had the meter

2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4

If the verse is repeated

Verse 1 Verse 2
2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4 2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4

It will generally make more notational sense to *not* combine the inner 2
2/4 bars since the first 2/4 bar of the 2nd verse corresponds to the first
2/4 bar of the first verse. By writing it as 1 4/4 bar we obscure this fact
as now it seems everything is shifted 2 beats. It also prevents us from
using a double bar to signify a new section.

There is the argument to be made simply to write the verse all in 4/4 but
this too could be awkward in some cases.
Tom K.
2011-08-01 21:31:08 UTC
Permalink
"DonMack" wrote in message news:j16l8l$a08$***@dont-email.me...

There are cases when it may be called for. When a new section occurs it may
make better notational sense to split a bar of 4/4 into 2 2/4's.

Just hypothetically suppose a verse had the meter

2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4

If the verse is repeated

Verse 1 Verse 2
2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4 2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4

It will generally make more notational sense to *not* combine the inner 2
2/4 bars since the first 2/4 bar of the 2nd verse corresponds to the first
2/4 bar of the first verse. By writing it as 1 4/4 bar we obscure this fact
as now it seems everything is shifted 2 beats. It also prevents us from
using a double bar to signify a new section.

There is the argument to be made simply to write the verse all in 4/4 but
this too could be awkward in some cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah... the exception which proves the rule. But you had to dig pretty far
deep as examples would seem to be few and far between.

Tom
DonMack
2011-08-02 07:08:20 UTC
Permalink
"Tom K." wrote in message news:tYOdnaFgs-***@giganews.com...



"DonMack" wrote in message news:j16l8l$a08$***@dont-email.me...

There are cases when it may be called for. When a new section occurs it may
make better notational sense to split a bar of 4/4 into 2 2/4's.

Just hypothetically suppose a verse had the meter

2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4

If the verse is repeated

Verse 1 Verse 2
2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4 2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4

It will generally make more notational sense to *not* combine the inner 2
2/4 bars since the first 2/4 bar of the 2nd verse corresponds to the first
2/4 bar of the first verse. By writing it as 1 4/4 bar we obscure this fact
as now it seems everything is shifted 2 beats. It also prevents us from
using a double bar to signify a new section.

There is the argument to be made simply to write the verse all in 4/4 but
this too could be awkward in some cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah... the exception which proves the rule. But you had to dig pretty far
deep as examples would seem to be few and far between.

Tom
--------------------------

An exception is an exception regardless. It only takes one counter example
to prove a blanket claim false.
paramucho
2011-08-04 13:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by DonMack
There are cases when it may be called for. When a new section occurs it may
make better notational sense to split a bar of 4/4 into 2 2/4's.
Just hypothetically suppose a verse had the meter
2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4
If the verse is repeated
Verse 1 Verse 2
2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4 2/4 4/4 ... 4/4 2/4
It will generally make more notational sense to *not* combine the inner 2
2/4 bars since the first 2/4 bar of the 2nd verse corresponds to the first
2/4 bar of the first verse. By writing it as 1 4/4 bar we obscure this fact
as now it seems everything is shifted 2 beats. It also prevents us from
using a double bar to signify a new section.
There is the argument to be made simply to write the verse all in 4/4 but
this too could be awkward in some cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah... the exception which proves the rule. But you had to dig pretty far
deep as examples would seem to be few and far between.
Tom
--------------------------
An exception is an exception regardless. It only takes one counter example
to prove a blanket claim false.
Although it remains a hypothetical counter-example until someone
provides an actual instance of the structure...

Ian
Hans Aberg
2011-08-02 08:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall rhythm
pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine one 4/4
bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
This does not work with CPP rules, as 6 is divided 3+3. But I have seen
an example in Bulgarian music where 6 is 2+2+2, contrasted with 7.

Hans
Tom K.
2011-08-02 16:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall rhythm
pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine one 4/4
bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
This does not work with CPP rules, as 6 is divided 3+3. But I have seen
an example in Bulgarian music where 6 is 2+2+2, contrasted with 7.

Hans
-------------------------------------
This is true, Hans, but using the proper 3/2 meter signature might further
confuse many pop musicians.

Tom
Hans Aberg
2011-08-02 17:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall rhythm
pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine one 4/4
bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
This does not work with CPP rules, as 6 is divided 3+3. But I have seen
an example in Bulgarian music where 6 is 2+2+2, contrasted with 7.
This is true, Hans, but using the proper 3/2 meter signature might
further confuse many pop musicians.
Stravinsky, "Le Sacre du printemps", has shifts between 6/8 and 3/4, and
between 4/4 and 2/4, which might also confuse pop musicians, then. :-)

Hans
Gill Smith
2011-08-03 07:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall rhythm
pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine one 4/4
bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
This does not work with CPP rules, as 6 is divided 3+3. But I have seen
an example in Bulgarian music where 6 is 2+2+2, contrasted with 7.
Hans
-------------------------------------
This is true, Hans, but using the proper 3/2 meter signature might further
confuse many pop musicians.
but even pop musos can come up with some brain-bending time signatures

Peter Gabriel's "Solsbury Hill" is one such

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Hans Aberg
2011-08-02 09:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Post by Tom K.
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does
anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall
rhythm pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine
one 4/4 bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds
the same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this
could exist only as a notational "inconvenience".
The accent patterns are different:
2 | > . | > . |
4 | > . (>) . |
And there is this one, too:
4 | > . . . |
mentioned in section "Mesure à quatre temps" here:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesure_(solfège)
Post by Tom K.
If a strong accent was
desired on the 3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an
dynamic marking but to notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be
an example of what I would call "musical illiteracy".
For 4 to sound as two 2, all instruments must be marked with a syncope.

Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of

The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.

The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.

Hans
Gill Smith
2011-08-03 06:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Post by Tom K.
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does
anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall
rhythm pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine
one 4/4 bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds
the same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this
could exist only as a notational "inconvenience".
2 | > . | > . |
4 | > . (>) . |
4 | > . . . |
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesure_(solfège)
Post by Tom K.
If a strong accent was
desired on the 3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an
dynamic marking but to notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be
an example of what I would call "musical illiteracy".
For 4 to sound as two 2, all instruments must be marked with a syncope.
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes

it is at 0:41 secs in this video

http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Hans Aberg
2011-08-03 07:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
To me it sounds as you should put tenuto marks on those two notes (in
meter 4), which indicates emphasis by lengthening the note to its full
value and possibly using some dynamic, too. That is the feeling I get
from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenuto

(Nice score, but try to replace it with a more skilled singer in the
first part.)

Hans
Gill Smith
2011-08-03 08:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
To me it sounds as you should put tenuto marks on those two notes (in
meter 4), which indicates emphasis by lengthening the note to its full
value and possibly using some dynamic, too. That is the feeling I get from
it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenuto
(Nice score, but try to replace it with a more skilled singer in the first
part.)
ah, the irony!

Merrie England has become po-faced PC Central

I approached *three* local singers to sing it

they all turned and ran because of the lyrics

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Hans Aberg
2011-08-03 08:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
To me it sounds as you should put tenuto marks on those two notes (in
meter 4), which indicates emphasis by lengthening the note to its full
value and possibly using some dynamic, too. That is the feeling I get from
it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenuto
(Nice score, but try to replace it with a more skilled singer in the first
part.)
ah, the irony!
Merrie England has become po-faced PC Central
I approached *three* local singers to sing it
they all turned and ran because of the lyrics
Perhaps it was fortunate I didn't listen for the lyrics! And it might be
better off with lyrics that singers want to sing. :-)

Hans
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-12 10:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
To me it sounds as you should put tenuto marks on those two notes (in
meter 4), which indicates emphasis by lengthening the note to its full
value and possibly using some dynamic, too. That is the feeling I get from
it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenuto
(Nice score, but try to replace it with a more skilled singer in the first
part.)
ah, the irony!
Merrie England has become po-faced PC Central
I approached *three* local singers to sing it
they all turned and ran because of the lyrics
--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Maybe it was because of the title.

Waltzing Matilda in barbershop harmony is hard to beat.
Now, if you approached *four* local barbershop singers in *one* quartet,
with a score...
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-12 09:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Post by Tom K.
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does
anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall
rhythm pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine
one 4/4 bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds
the same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this
could exist only as a notational "inconvenience".
2 | > . | > . |
4 | > . (>) . |
4 | > . . . |
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesure_(solfège)
Post by Tom K.
If a strong accent was
desired on the 3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an
dynamic marking but to notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be
an example of what I would call "musical illiteracy".
For 4 to sound as two 2, all instruments must be marked with a syncope.
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
I can't make out the lyrics.
The old Australian national anthem is? Waltzing Matilda?
I wonder if there's a barbershop arrangement of it.
Gill Smith
2011-10-12 11:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Post by Tom K.
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does
anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall
rhythm pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine
one 4/4 bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds
the same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this
could exist only as a notational "inconvenience".
2 | > . | > . |
4 | > . (>) . |
4 | > . . . |
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesure_(solfège)
Post by Tom K.
If a strong accent was
desired on the 3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an
dynamic marking but to notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be
an example of what I would call "musical illiteracy".
For 4 to sound as two 2, all instruments must be marked with a syncope.
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
I can't make out the lyrics.
The old Australian national anthem is? Waltzing Matilda?
I wonder if there's a barbershop arrangement of it.
unfortunately, I was practising a new singing technique - singing from the
thorax

musically, there's fewer wrong notes

the trade-off is less clear diction

that's why nobody understands the words in opera

- so why do people keep staging operas in English translation....

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-13 08:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Post by Tom K.
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does
anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall
rhythm pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine
one 4/4 bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds
the same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this
could exist only as a notational "inconvenience".
2 | > . | > . |
4 | > . (>) . |
4 | > . . . |
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesure_(solfège)
Post by Tom K.
If a strong accent was
desired on the 3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an
dynamic marking but to notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be
an example of what I would call "musical illiteracy".
For 4 to sound as two 2, all instruments must be marked with a syncope.
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
I can't make out the lyrics.
The old Australian national anthem is? Waltzing Matilda?
I wonder if there's a barbershop arrangement of it.
unfortunately, I was practising a new singing technique - singing from the
thorax
musically, there's fewer wrong notes
the trade-off is less clear diction
that's why nobody understands the words in opera
- so why do people keep staging operas in English translation....
http://www.dltk-kids.com/world/australia/anthem.htm
http://www.dltk-kids.com/world/australia/anthem.mid

The last two or three verses are about war, kinda like the American National Anthem, only not as graphic. I wish I could say that the lyrics for Australia's new national anthem were as fun to sing and hear as Waltzing Matilda.

That midi file sounds very majestic. Unfortunately, my midi software is out of operation, so my ears are *guessing* that it is in four parts (or more), perhaps with range geared towards a mixed sex quartet. The usual practice is to mute all but one part; play one part at a time and hav one singer match it. It is called a sectional. Sing with instruments once or twice. Then turn off the instruments and do it a-cappella. Nothing is like it. A quartet with their act together can tour a shopping mall, sing on a bus, or go to any restaurant (asking for radio to be turned off), then stop to make appointments and pass out business cards. They can also sing anywhere a convertible will take them, although crowds of people are seldom in parking lots.

The barbershop chorus (about thirty) I was with about four years ago took guests, which means that I had time to show whether I would fit in, memorize lyrics, and stick with it before they took any dues, which were about $150 per year, plus suit rentals, incidental and travelling expenses.

Mixed quartets, when they convene, are usually in churches, although I imajin some recording studios hav them on tap, and I am sure there are a few coherent touring mixed quartets. That would be like two couples of singers.
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-13 10:03:03 UTC
Permalink
If you asked most people in the seventies what Canada's official
national sport was, they would've told you Hockey. Officially, it was
Lacrosse. I do not think Australia's national Anthem will ever be as
popular as Waltzing Matilda. A song that equates "You'll come a Waltzing
Matilda with me." with "You are under arrest." haz enough law and order
in it for me. And all those funky Australian words in it damn near
guarantee that it will spend more time on charts, and as an ear worm,
than Australia's National Anthem.
_______
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/ BrewJay's Babble Bin
David F Cox
2011-10-13 10:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by Gill Smith
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Tom K.
Post by Tom K.
lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time but does
anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?
Inserting a 2/4 bar into a 4/4 context is necessary when the overall
rhythm pattern shifts by two beats. Another way to do this is to combine
one 4/4 bar + the "extra" 2 beats into a 6/4 measure.
But when performed, two consecutive 2/4 measures ( as notated) sounds
the same as one conventional 4/4 measure with no such shift, so this
could exist only as a notational "inconvenience".
2 | > . | > . |
4 | > . (>) . |
4 | > . . . |
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesure_(solfège)
Post by Tom K.
If a strong accent was
desired on the 3rd beat of a measure, this should be indicated by an
dynamic marking but to notate one 4/4 bar as two 2/4 measures would be
an example of what I would call "musical illiteracy".
For 4 to sound as two 2, all instruments must be marked with a syncope.
Treatment may be ambiguous. Listen at the end (starting at time 7:34) of
http://youtu.be/2AWPZ2zQUtM
The percussion plays in 4, but the bagpipe in an irregular meter.
The last percussion bar before the bagpipe starts paying might be
ambiguously described as a syncopated 4 or two 2.
what prompted my question was the bit in my song where the rhythm changes
it is at 0:41 secs in this video
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/new_Australian_National_Anthem/
--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
I can't make out the lyrics.
The old Australian national anthem is? Waltzing Matilda?
I wonder if there's a barbershop arrangement of it.
If Australia needed a new national anthem perhaps it should be this



DonMack
2011-08-01 12:23:32 UTC
Permalink
"Gill Smith" wrote in message news:***@brightview.co.uk...

lots of songs have a bar of 2/4 time inserted into 4/4 time

but

does anyone know of an instance of *two* consecutive bars of 2/4 time
inserted into 4/4 time?

---------

There would be little reason to do so.

2 bars of 2/4 would be 1 bar of 4/4.

Meter is not something that has an instantaneous value. You cannot perceive
the difference between a bar of 4/4 and 2 bars of 2/4 in a song that is in
4/4 because your *ear* has no reason to. There are rare cases where it is
possible but it will still be perceived as 4/4 by the majority of the
people.

Just because you notate something in 2/4 doesn't mean it is 2/4.

What you really should be asking is what is meter and what makes a song 2/4
vs 4/4.

2/4 is a regularly occurring pattern of strong weak. Note we need several
bars to occur before we can perceive the pattern.

4/4 is a regularly occurring pattern of strong weak medium weak.

When you have just one bar of 2/4 inserted in a group of 4/4 bars the
accents change where the strong swaps with medium.

When you have 2 consecutive bars of 2/4 inserted in a group of 4/4 bars the
accents do not change and you just have a single medium accent becoming a
strong accent. This is heard not as a change in meter by most people but a
syncopation. A syncopation is a temporary change in accents and this is what
you will hear.

Assume we have been hearing 4/4. That is S W M W accents.

4/4 4/4 4/4
4/4 2/4 4/4 4/4
4/4 2/4 2/4 4/4
4/4 3/4 4/4

S W M W S W M W S W M W
S W M W S W S W M W S W M W
S W M W S W S W S W M W
S W M W S W W S W M W

Notice that in each case how the accents have changed.

In the 3/4 example the normally strong beat has actually become a weak beat.
To see this just compare the 3/4 case with the 4/4 case which is what the
listener is expecting(probably).

S W M W S W M W S W M W
S W M W S W W S W M W

See how in the 3/4 case, since we lost a beat, everything was shifted to the
left one beat and now what was strong becomes weak. It can be awkward
specially since it is not common. If the piece of music just inserts a bar
of 3/4 randomly it will sound awkward and wrong to most people in most
cases.

Now, for your specific case we have

S W M W S W M W S W M W
S W M W S W S W S W M W

Note that after the 2 bars of 2/4 are up everything is aligned again. The
only differences is that a M became an S. No big deal. It is not awkward at
all. No one will hear a "meter change" because one didn't happen. You could
notate it in 2/4 for convenience BUT the meter is still 4/4.

For the single 2/4 case though,

S W M W S W M W S W M W
S W M W S W S W M W S W M W

Notice that after we bar of 2/4 the S and M accents have flipped. This is
not a huge deal in most cases because it was intentional and occurs at the
start or end of a section only. If it occurred in the middle of the piece
what will be heard is if the 1 and 3 beats got flipped. So your chord
changes, which usually occur on the 1, might start sounding like they are
occurring on the 3. Most people will quickly readjust their down beat to fit
with this. If it is at the end or beginning of a section it is no big deal
as the down beat is almost always perfectly clear.
Loading...