Parallel modulations

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Joo Bloww

2011-07-14 16:34:56 UTC

What are some smooth modulations from the parallel major to minor and
vice versa? I have some very similar ideas in minor and major but when
I use some direct modulation techniques it sounds a bit strange. Using
the V chord by itself just doesn't setup the expectation of a change
of mode.

When you listen to the masters mode change it seems like it was
inevitable. Somehow somewhere they setup the expectation that it
should be so.

Just looking for some guidance.

Thanks

Tom K.

2011-07-14 22:14:50 UTC

Permalink

"Joo Bloww" wrote in message news:126fd131-7947-47fb-ad41-***@s2g2000vbw.googlegroups.com...

What are some smooth modulations from the parallel major to minor and
vice versa? I have some very similar ideas in minor and major but when
I use some direct modulation techniques it sounds a bit strange. Using
the V chord by itself just doesn't setup the expectation of a change
of mode.

When you listen to the masters mode change it seems like it was
inevitable. Somehow somewhere they setup the expectation that it
should be so.

Just looking for some guidance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting question, but as modulation is generally defined as a change of
tonal center, what you are really asking about is change of mode.

Not having a general response to your query, I'd point out the modal changes
Beethoven presents at the opening of the Waldstein Piano Sonata in C Major.
After 4 bars ostensibly in C which may be heard as G major due to the IV-V-I
cadence on G, bars 5~8 repeat the same material transposed a major second
down (F major - or just an emphasis on the IV chord?). The next 5 measures
(IIRC) move from F minor to V and then articulate a cadence of C minor to
G - a half cadence in C minor. Measure 14 reverts back to measure 1 and is
clearly in C major - after which a modulation is begun leading to the 2nd
thematic group in E major, which happens to be the relative minor of the
Dominant. So here, perhaps it is the strong rhythmic effect of the three
phrase period ending on V which resolves back to major instead of minor.

You might also examine some later Romantic composers such as Liszt, Wagner,
early Scriabin, etc., who seemed to regard the tonal universe as having 12
keys, not 24 so there is often little distinction between a key and it's
parallel mode.

And if you can discover a general procedure to achieve this modal change
smoothness, I'd be interested.
Tom

Alain Naigeon

2011-07-15 01:54:23 UTC

Permalink

Post by Joo Bloww
What are some smooth modulations from the parallel major to minor and
vice versa? I have some very similar ideas in minor and major but when
I use some direct modulation techniques it sounds a bit strange. Using
the V chord by itself just doesn't setup the expectation of a change
of mode.
When you listen to the masters mode change it seems like it was
inevitable. Somehow somewhere they setup the expectation that it
should be so.
Just looking for some guidance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting question, but as modulation is generally defined as a change
of tonal center, what you are really asking about is change of mode.
Not having a general response to your query, I'd point out the modal
changes Beethoven presents at the opening of the Waldstein Piano Sonata in
C Major. After 4 bars ostensibly in C which may be heard as G major due to
the IV-V-I cadence on G, bars 5~8 repeat the same material transposed a
major second down (F major - or just an emphasis on the IV chord?). The
next 5 measures (IIRC) move from F minor to V and then articulate a
cadence of C minor to G - a half cadence in C minor. Measure 14 reverts
back to measure 1 and is clearly in C major - after which a modulation is
begun leading to the 2nd thematic group in E major, which happens to be
the relative minor of the Dominant. So here, perhaps it is the strong
rhythmic effect of the three phrase period ending on V which resolves back
to major instead of minor.
You might also examine some later Romantic composers such as Liszt,
Wagner, early Scriabin, etc., who seemed to regard the tonal universe as
having 12 keys, not 24 so there is often little distinction between a key
and it's parallel mode.
And if you can discover a general procedure to achieve this modal change
smoothness, I'd be interested.
Tom

I've tried this :
I IVm bIIIm bVI6 V(M!) Im
which seems to work rather well
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LJS

2011-07-15 15:22:51 UTC

Permalink

I can only add a couple of thoughts.
Modal changes (Tom explained that a bit as the tonal center is still
the same) are usually melodically driven. If your melody smoothly
shifts from (for example) major to minor and it does it smoothly, the
harmony to accompany it should be smooth as well.

The other is to look carefully at the pieces you refer to as being
inevitable when done by the masters and see what they did to make it
smooth. The only examples that I come up with right now are direct
changes in mode. I don't understand what you mean by "setup" so an
example or two might help us to better understand what you are talking
about.

Just for a guess, however, I will say that in re your use of the
single dominant chord as not being convincing, the preparation for the
V7 might give you the anticipation that you are looking for. i.e.
precede the V7 with an iv or a ii7-5 with or without the affected
notes in the melody and your cadence would already have begun with
those chords so the resolution of V7 -> i should not be a surprise.

But to go back to my first thought, write you melody that changes mode
first and get that smooth and then your harmony should fall into
place. Do remember, that it is a drastic change of feeling and in a
lot of instances, the music text as well as the musical content is at
a point where a change of feeling will coincide with the text to
emphasize the new mood.

I suspect that in the end, you will find that it is mostly a result of
the harmony following the melody and your best solution will be if the
melody "demands" a change of mode. To answer that, however, is the
same as trying to answer, "How do I make my music more artistic?" and
if you can answer that, you will have reached the artistic stage and
it will be reflected in your music. Not much help now, however, so you
might just have to struggle with this question the same as the rest of
us have to. (I don't think that Beethoven has been following this news
group recently! lol ) But, send some more details or a specific
example of a good one or one that you have written that does NOT sound
smooth and maybe we can help you out with a specific example rather
than the broad philosophical implications of your question. I am
anxious to see what you consider smooth and not so smooth. Something
specific to work with will answer a whole lot of questions.

LJS

Joey Goldstein

2011-07-15 17:08:22 UTC

Permalink

Try using V7b9 or V7#5 when moving to Im.
Use V9 or V13 when moving to Imaj.

Other than that simply subbing the minor version of a diatonic chord for
the major version and visa-versa usually works fine.

Eg.
I IV V7 I in major
becomes
Im IVm V7 Im in minor.

Eg.
I VIm7 IIm7 V7 I in major
becomes
Im VIm7b5 (or bVImaj) IIm7b5 V7 Im in minor.

Etc.

Note: It is much more common to have borrowing from the parallel minor
within major-keyed music than it is to have borrowing from the parallel
major within minor-keyed music.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca

Tom K.

2011-07-15 19:27:17 UTC

Permalink

"Joey Goldstein" wrote in message news:e6ecc$4e2074a1$adceef69$***@PRIMUS.CA...

Note: It is much more common to have borrowing from the parallel minor
within major-keyed music than it is to have borrowing from the parallel
major within minor-keyed music.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Probably because the major tonic chord is initially heard as a V/iv in
minor.

And since every good "rule" has an exception, the "Picardie Third" or major
tonic as a final chord in minor mode was quite common during the Baroque
period.

Tom

Hans Aberg

2011-07-15 17:21:29 UTC

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