lydian b2 (b6)?

[Jeffery Tomas]

Playing around at the keyboard I played the notes

A Bb C# D# E

which had an unusual sound. The Bb creating a striking change of modal
characteristics from that of Lydian to a sort of whole tone effect(possibly
due to the Bb C# D#) but definitely not a whole tone scale(it just has that
weird ambiguous sound that isn't harshly dissonant).

Trying to extend this to a 7 note scale that didn't ruin the flavor I came
up with

A Bb C# D# E F G#

and possibly

A Bb C# D# E F# G#

D# E F and G# A Bb are all half steps apart. Definitely not found in any
scale I've heard of.

The first could be considered a Lydian b2 b6 and the second a Lydian b2

The first contains the triads

A C#min F+ (a bit unique in that the only chords of the scale come from the
notes of F+)

The second contains the triads

A C#min D#dim F#min

Anyone every seen anything like this or recognize any of it's close
relatives?

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Playing around at the keyboard I played the notes
A Bb C# D# E
which had an unusual sound. The Bb creating a striking change of modal
characteristics from that of Lydian to a sort of whole tone
effect(possibly due to the Bb C# D#) but definitely not a whole tone
scale(it just has that weird ambiguous sound that isn't harshly dissonant).
Trying to extend this to a 7 note scale that didn't ruin the flavor I
came up with
A Bb C# D# E F G#
and possibly
A Bb C# D# E F# G#
D# E F and G# A Bb are all half steps apart. Definitely not found in any
scale I've heard of.
The first could be considered a Lydian b2 b6 and the second a Lydian b2
The first contains the triads
A C#min F+ (a bit unique in that the only chords of the scale come from
the notes of F+)
The second contains the triads
A C#min D#dim F#min
Anyone every seen anything like this or recognize any of it's close
relatives?

Scales with consecutive half steps are rare in most styles of music
except for certain folk musics of certain cultures, e.g. Middle Eastern.
They have limited usage in music in which harmonic progression is a
feature and/or music based on the major/minor key system.
Unless you hit on one of the small number of traditionally used scales
from some non-Western culture it's unlikely that a scale with
consecutive semitones, especially a scale with more than 1 set of
consecutive semitones in it, will have a common name associated with it.
So I have no names for any of your scales. I bet someone here does though.

But A Bb C# D# E is a five-note subset of the 8-note (octotonic)
symmetrical diminished scale which is comprised of a series of
alternating half steps and whole steps: A Bb C C# D# E F# G A.
That's the first scale I thought of when I saw your first 5 notes.

[Tom K.]

"Joey Goldstein" wrote in message news:67f9a$4f1adaa0$adceee3b$***@PRIMUS.CA...

But A Bb C# D# E is a five-note subset of the 8-note (octotonic)
symmetrical diminished scale which is comprised of a series of
alternating half steps and whole steps: A Bb C C# D# E F# G A.
That's the first scale I thought of when I saw your first 5 notes.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>

And that set contains two perfect 5ths a tritone apart: A~E and Eb~Bb. This
could imply a pitch center on either A or Eb, or both.

It (like the parent scale) is symmetrical with an interval pattern of
1,3,3,1; so the retrograde is simply a transposition of the inversion. As
Bartok made extensive use of the octatonic scale and was quite fond of this
type of construction, I wouldn't be surprised to find this particular pentad
in his works - although I can't point to an example off the top of my head.

Also, the first 3 notes comprise the beginning of the pop tune, Stormy
Weather, which is probably the most useless piece of information in this
thread.

Tom

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Playing around at the keyboard I played the notes
A Bb C# D# E
which had an unusual sound. The Bb creating a striking change of modal
characteristics from that of Lydian to a sort of whole tone
effect(possibly due to the Bb C# D#) but definitely not a whole tone
scale(it just has that weird ambiguous sound that isn't harshly dissonant).
Trying to extend this to a 7 note scale that didn't ruin the flavor I
came up with
A Bb C# D# E F G#
and possibly
A Bb C# D# E F# G#
D# E F and G# A Bb are all half steps apart. Definitely not found in any
scale I've heard of.

...

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Anyone every seen anything like this or recognize any of it's close
relatives?

Just work out the tonesteps and search on
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/modename.html

Hans

[Jeffery Tomas]

It turns out that the 5 notes I was hearing was really just part of the F#
blues scale. The next day I sat down and played it and was like "duh". I'm
not sure if it was because I was playing a lot of stuff in A that day and
somehow heard it as a mode of the blues scale or what.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by Jeffery Tomas
It turns out that the 5 notes I was hearing was really just part of the
F# blues scale. The next day I sat down and played it and was like
"duh". I'm not sure if it was because I was playing a lot of stuff in A
that day and somehow heard it as a mode of the blues scale or what.

I don't think that the notes: A Bb C# D# E are a subset of any scale
normally referred to as a "blues scale".

The scale most commonly referred as "the blues scale" is a minor
pentatonic scale with a chromatic note added between the 4th and 5th
above the tonic.
1 b3 4 #4/b5 5 b7

Your 5-note fragment has 2 semitones in it, none of which corresponds to
the semitonal pattern within any of "the blues scales".
I.e. A and Bb could be the 4 and #4 or the #4 and 5 of the E blues scale
(E G A Bb B D) or the Eb blues scale (Eb Gb Ab A Bb Db) respectively,
but your fragment does not correspond to either of these blues scales.

Likewise, D# & E could be 4 and #4 of the Bb blues scale (Bb Db Eb E F
Ab) or #4 and 5 of the A blues scale (A C D D# E G), but the rest of
your fragment doesn't fit either of those.

The F# blues scale is: F# A B C C# E.

Actually, I think that George Russell calls 1 2 b3 3 4 #4 5 6 b7 "the
blues scale". Is that the scale you're referring to?
In my experience, most people don't really think of that as a common
scale or as "the blues scale".

[Jeffery Tomas]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by Jeffery Tomas
It turns out that the 5 notes I was hearing was really just part of the
F# blues scale. The next day I sat down and played it and was like
"duh". I'm not sure if it was because I was playing a lot of stuff in A
that day and somehow heard it as a mode of the blues scale or what.

I don't think that the notes: A Bb C# D# E are a subset of any scale
normally referred to as a "blues scale".
The scale most commonly referred as "the blues scale" is a minor pentatonic
scale with a chromatic note added between the 4th and 5th above the tonic.
1 b3 4 #4/b5 5 b7
Your 5-note fragment has 2 semitones in it, none of which corresponds to
the semitonal pattern within any of "the blues scales".
I.e. A and Bb could be the 4 and #4 or the #4 and 5 of the E blues scale (E
G A Bb B D) or the Eb blues scale (Eb Gb Ab A Bb Db) respectively, but your
fragment does not correspond to either of these blues scales.
Likewise, D# & E could be 4 and #4 of the Bb blues scale (Bb Db Eb E F Ab)
or #4 and 5 of the A blues scale (A C D D# E G), but the rest of your
fragment doesn't fit either of those.
The F# blues scale is: F# A B C C# E.
Actually, I think that George Russell calls 1 2 b3 3 4 #4 5 6 b7 "the blues
scale". Is that the scale you're referring to?
In my experience, most people don't really think of that as a common scale
or as "the blues scale".

You are correct but I'm not specifically talking about the minor blues. As
you know many times in a major setting such as country you add the flat 3rd
and flat 5th. One can think of it as a mixolydian with added b3. Used in
blues sometimes and a lot in country.

C (D) (Eb) E (F) G A Bb

In this case I was not playing the 2nd or 4th scale degree's. It maybe more
of a country twang thang than true blues.

At first though I was seeing this revolve around the Eb note but when I
started hearing it around C is when it started to take on a totally
different flavor and reminded me more of blues than what I was originally
hearing.

You are right about the half steps and this is what initially threw me off.

Eb E G A Bb

But adding a C immediately gives it a common flavor

C (Eb) E G A Bb

I don't know if one can go as far as say the first is an Edimmaj7 but it
does seem to parallel the minmaj7 chord.

I've heard a lot of that mixolydian scale talked about in blues and country
context. I'm not sure if it is considered "blues" or not but it sure sounds
"bluesy".

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by Jeffery Tomas

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by Jeffery Tomas
It turns out that the 5 notes I was hearing was really just part of the
F# blues scale. The next day I sat down and played it and was like
"duh". I'm not sure if it was because I was playing a lot of stuff in A
that day and somehow heard it as a mode of the blues scale or what.

I don't think that the notes: A Bb C# D# E are a subset of any scale
normally referred to as a "blues scale".
The scale most commonly referred as "the blues scale" is a minor
pentatonic scale with a chromatic note added between the 4th and 5th
above the tonic.
1 b3 4 #4/b5 5 b7
Your 5-note fragment has 2 semitones in it, none of which corresponds
to the semitonal pattern within any of "the blues scales".
I.e. A and Bb could be the 4 and #4 or the #4 and 5 of the E blues
scale (E G A Bb B D) or the Eb blues scale (Eb Gb Ab A Bb Db)
respectively, but your fragment does not correspond to either of these
blues scales.
Likewise, D# & E could be 4 and #4 of the Bb blues scale (Bb Db Eb E F
Ab) or #4 and 5 of the A blues scale (A C D D# E G), but the rest of
your fragment doesn't fit either of those.
The F# blues scale is: F# A B C C# E.
Actually, I think that George Russell calls 1 2 b3 3 4 #4 5 6 b7 "the
blues scale". Is that the scale you're referring to?
In my experience, most people don't really think of that as a common
scale or as "the blues scale".

You are correct but I'm not specifically talking about the minor blues.
As you know many times in a major setting such as country you add the
flat 3rd and flat 5th. One can think of it as a mixolydian with added
b3. Used in blues sometimes and a lot in country.
C (D) (Eb) E (F) G A Bb
In this case I was not playing the 2nd or 4th scale degree's. It maybe
more of a country twang thang than true blues.
At first though I was seeing this revolve around the Eb note but when I
started hearing it around C is when it started to take on a totally
different flavor and reminded me more of blues than what I was
originally hearing.
You are right about the half steps and this is what initially threw me off.
Eb E G A Bb
But adding a C immediately gives it a common flavor
C (Eb) E G A Bb
I don't know if one can go as far as say the first is an Edimmaj7 but it
does seem to parallel the minmaj7 chord.
I've heard a lot of that mixolydian scale talked about in blues and
country context. I'm not sure if it is considered "blues" or not but it
sure sounds "bluesy".

In major keys, the thing known as the blues scale is still 1 b3 4 #4 5
b7. It's just superimposed over a Imaj chord.
But you can create a composite scale using all the notes of the chord
plus the notes of the blues scale too.
In a C major blues:
On C7 try C Eb E F F# G Bb
On F7 try C Eb F F# G A Bb
On G7 try C D Eb F F# G Bb B

It's fine if your scale fragment reminds you of a blues tonality, but
it's not a fragment of what is commonly known as "*the* blues scale".

[Jeffery Tomas]

The minor blues in A is

A C D Eb E G

But the "relative major" of that is

C D Eb E G A

This is a "major blues scale". Commonly used in country and also known as
the country scale and can be thought of as mixolydian with added b3.

It's used enough in blues that it is part of the blues scales although maybe
calling it the blues scale is wrong since that is generally thought of as
the minor blues scale.

The main point is that they are modally related. When we talk about the C
major scale we tend to include the modes within it. Same idea here. Any mode
of the blues scale is still the blues scale.

In fact, it would be more appropriate to let the blues scale refer to the
major form. This would make it all analogous to the major scale and modes.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by Jeffery Tomas
The minor blues in A is
A C D Eb E G
But the "relative major" of that is
C D Eb E G A
This is a "major blues scale".

You could look at it that way if you want, but I've never heard anybody
call it "the major blues scale".
I'm 58 years old and have been playing professionally for about 40
years, 30 years of which I've been teaching jazz guitar at the college
level, and I've never seen it called "the major blues scale".
It's a good name and it makes sense. I've just never heard it called
that before.
Feel free to call it that yourself, but the risk is that many
knowledgeable musicians won't understand what you're talking about.

Post by Jeffery Tomas
Commonly used in country and also known
as the country scale and can be thought of as mixolydian with added b3.

It's a major pentatonic scale with added b3.
For it to be a scale called "mixolydian add b3" it would need to be
comprised of the following 8 tones:
C D Eb E F G A Bb

Post by Jeffery Tomas
It's used enough in blues that it is part of the blues scales although
maybe calling it the blues scale is wrong since that is generally
thought of as the minor blues scale.
The main point is that they are modally related. When we talk about the
C major scale we tend to include the modes within it. Same idea here.
Any mode of the blues scale is still the blues scale.
In fact, it would be more appropriate to let the blues scale refer to
the major form. This would make it all analogous to the major scale and
modes.

I still don't see the relationship with the A blues scale or any other
blues scale to the scale fragment (A Bb C# D# E) from your original post
or to the larger scales from that post.
If you want to see it or hear your scale fragment as being related to an
F#7 chord via the "F# mixolydian add b3" scale, go right ahead, but it
doesn't really have much to do with what is generally known as "a blues
scale" in any key.
Sure, your fragment is "bluesy", but "the blues scale" is a pretty well
defined entity in the music world and your fragment isn't from it.

The one exception is the scale that George Russell calls "the auxillary
blues scale" and "the major blues scale" in his Lydian Chromatic Concept
Of Tonal Organization.
Basically he combines all the notes of the major scale with the notes of
the blues scale.
So his F# "major blues scale" would be: F# G# A A# B C C# D# E E#.
[The A C and E come from the F# blues scale. The other tones are all
members of the F# major scale.]
So *that scale* does fit your analysis of your original scale fragment.
But it's not a scale that is routinely referred to as "a blues scale"
within the music community at large in my experience.

[Jeffery Tomas]

It turns out that the 5 notes I was hearing was really just part of the F#
blues scale. The next day I sat down and played it and was like "duh". I'm
not sure if it was because I was playing a lot of stuff in A that day and
somehow heard it as a mode of the blues scale or what.