Discussion:
A simple chord question
(too old to reply)
Barry
2010-04-17 18:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?

Thanks,

Barry
Tom K.
2010-04-17 19:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio. This chord is a V chord in first inversion which
would be symbolized as V6. They are both dominant function chords.

Tom
David Raleigh Arnold
2010-04-18 20:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio. This chord is a V chord in first inversion
which would be symbolized as V6.
They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Tom K.
2010-04-18 22:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom K.
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio. This chord is a V chord in first inversion
which would be symbolized as V6.
They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Granted, certain assumptions were being made. So the diminished triad
(which isn't there) could function as a ii/vi if it resolved to an equally
non-existent F# or F#7 chord. And, of course, the A chord may not be
functioning as V if there has been a modulation - but the OP said the piece
was in D.
That's not rearranging, that's analysis!

Tom
David Raleigh Arnold
2010-04-19 01:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom K.
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes
C# E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord
and is its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio. This chord is a V chord in first inversion
which would be symbolized as V6.
They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Granted, certain assumptions were being made. So the diminished triad
(which isn't there) could function as a ii/vi if it resolved to an
equally non-existent F# or F#7 chord. And, of course, the A chord may
not be functioning as V if there has been a modulation - but the OP said
the piece was in D.
That's not rearranging, that's analysis!
No, it's prejudiced speculation. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
LJS
2010-04-19 22:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes
C# E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord
and is its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio.  This chord is a V chord in first inversion
which would be symbolized as V6.
 They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Granted, certain assumptions were being made.  So the diminished triad
(which isn't there) could function as a ii/vi if it resolved to an
equally non-existent F# or F#7 chord.  And, of course, the A chord may
not be functioning as V if there has been a modulation - but the OP said
the piece was in D.
That's not rearranging, that's analysis!
No, it's prejudiced speculation. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
I suppose it is useless to try to get you to provide any rational
explanation of your irrational statements so I guess unless there is
something that makes sense in an explanation, there is no use getting
into another dead end discussion with you as contrary to your
statement, you are the only one doing any speculating. The key is
given, the poster is expecting a dominant function chord Tom and I
make a simple, a very simple, analysis of what he is asking and you
come in and SPECULATE that there might be a modulation. (hmm, then he
might not be expecting a V function in Dmin!) and you then SPECULATE
that there might be an imaginary F#7 chord and you SPECULATE that it
might resolve someplace else and then you accuse us of SPECULATING?

Do you ever listen to what you say?

LJS
David Raleigh Arnold
2010-04-20 09:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by LJS
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the
notes C# E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this
chord and is its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio.  This chord is a V chord in first
inversion which would be symbolized as V6.
 They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Granted, certain assumptions were being made.  So the diminished
triad (which isn't there) could function as a ii/vi if it resolved to
an equally non-existent F# or F#7 chord.  And, of course, the A chord
may not be functioning as V if there has been a modulation - but the
OP said the piece was in D.
That's not rearranging, that's analysis!
No, it's prejudiced speculation. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all
guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html::: plus new
and better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
I suppose it is useless to try to get you to provide any rational
explanation of your irrational statements so I guess unless there is
something that makes sense in an explanation, there is no use getting
into another dead end discussion with you as contrary to your statement,
you are the only one doing any speculating. The key is given, the poster
is expecting a dominant function chord Tom and I make a simple, a very
simple, analysis of what he is asking and you come in and SPECULATE that
there might be a modulation. (hmm, then he might not be expecting a V
function in Dmin!) and you then SPECULATE that there might be an
imaginary F#7 chord and you SPECULATE that it might resolve someplace
else and then you accuse us of SPECULATING?
But I didn't do that speculating. You did. Just now. I must be a mind
reader, to have the "accusation" precede the SPECULATION. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
LJS
2010-04-20 10:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by LJS
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the
notes C# E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this
chord and is its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio.  This chord is a V chord in first
inversion which would be symbolized as V6.
 They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Granted, certain assumptions were being made.  So the diminished
triad (which isn't there) could function as a ii/vi if it resolved to
an equally non-existent F# or F#7 chord.  And, of course, the A chord
may not be functioning as V if there has been a modulation - but the
OP said the piece was in D.
That's not rearranging, that's analysis!
No, it's prejudiced speculation. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all
guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html:::plus new
and better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
I suppose it is useless to try to get you to provide any rational
explanation of your irrational statements so I guess unless there is
something that makes sense in an explanation, there is no use getting
into another dead end discussion with you as contrary to your statement,
you are the only one doing any speculating. The key is given, the poster
is expecting a dominant function chord Tom and I make a simple, a very
simple, analysis of what he is asking and you come in and SPECULATE that
there might be a modulation. (hmm, then he might not be expecting a V
function in Dmin!) and you then SPECULATE that there might be an
imaginary F#7 chord and you SPECULATE that it might resolve someplace
else and then you accuse us of SPECULATING?
But I didn't do that speculating. You did. Just now. I must be a mind
reader, to have the "accusation" precede the SPECULATION. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
lol, Another useless response without any content to the thread. My
speculation on your response certainly was on the mark! lol

Keep that shovel moving!

LJS
David Raleigh Arnold
2010-04-20 14:29:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 03:49:42 -0700, LJS wrote:

...

You can't interpret or analize a piece of music sight unseen in any
worthwhile way, and any reader of this thread who can keep his breakfast
can see that you, LJS, are the useless bloviator who disputes that
sensible view. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
J R Laredo
2010-04-21 00:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
...
You can't interpret or analize a piece of music sight unseen in any
worthwhile way, and any reader of this thread who can keep his breakfast
can see that you, LJS, are the useless bloviator who disputes that
sensible view. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
I guess you weren't paying attention. The title of this thread is "simple
chord question." And it was. Simple. He used the standard set up that any
theorist, or, at the very least, any theory student I went through 101 and
102 with, can understand. Even the violist can understand it: "Im learning
a tune in d major..." There. Done. Given those parameters there is no
other answer in CCP, or, as I learned it, WSP.
LJS
2010-04-21 02:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
...
You can't interpret or analize a piece of music sight unseen in any
worthwhile way, and any reader of this thread who can keep his breakfast
can see that you, LJS, are the useless bloviator who disputes that
sensible view. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
And no one but you are claiming to do that. Dave and I simple answered
the question as stated. If there are "special conditions" the poster
can elucidate.

BTW, congratulations on your new "word of the day".

bloviate - Definition
[blṓvē-āt́]
(v.) Slang To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner:

Hmm. Who is it that is pompously adding conditions and uncommon
applications to a simple question posed by a poster? We answered the
question with the simplest answers. On the other hand, you are
pompously trying to show off by lengthy discourse on pompous solutions
to something that has not been expressed as a factor. I think you
might have used the wrong context for bloviate. Maybe are confused
with "boviate". Your hole is quite large now, maybe you should think
about putting down that shove.

LJS
LJS
2010-04-18 23:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio.  This chord is a V chord in first inversion
which would be symbolized as V6.
 They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
But the context was specified as D maj. I don't think that viip and
incomplete dominant is much of a stretch considering the context of
Dmaj. Do you really find this a stretch? Isn't it quite logical
considering that the context is "the key of Dmaj?" and exactly how is
giving the spelling of the chord in the key that the poster specified
qualified as being "rearranging"?

I looked up rearranging and context and your statement just doesn't
make any sense. How can a very clear answer to a question about chords
in a specific context be rearranging? I have to admit that you have me
there, I can't see the connection. maybe you will explain.

LJS


LJ Schenck
David Raleigh Arnold
2010-04-19 01:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by LJS
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes
C# E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord
and is its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
C#, E, G would be a viio.  This chord is a V chord in first inversion
which would be symbolized as V6.
 They are both dominant function
chords.
Unless the dim triad isn't. You shouldn't assume dominant functions
with speculations about missing roots and the like without something
solid in the way of context. That's not analysis, it's rearranging.
Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all
guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html::: plus new
and better chord and arpeggio exercises.  http://www.openguitar.com
But the context was specified as D maj. I don't think that viip and
incomplete dominant is much of a stretch
considering the context of
Dmaj. Do you really find this a stretch?
What are you asking, not much of a stretch, or not a stretch?

The point is that you don't know enough about the tune to be
bloviating, especially about a dim triad which is not even present
as far as you know. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
LJS
2010-04-18 01:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
Hi Barry,
I don't have anything to add to Tom's reply, but I find your question
somewhat puzzling. Please don't take this in any kind of wrong way, I
am sure it makes sense somehow but at present I can't quite figure it
out.

I don't understand how someone can be "expecting" a viio or a leading
tone triad which is a dominant function and not know that the C# E A
is an inversion of the actual dominant chord. Since the viio is
actually an A C# E G or V7 chord without the root, it just doesn't
follow that you would know and be "expecting" the chord and you still
get it and not know it.

Like I said, don't read much into this, its only that if a student of
mine asked that question, I would be speechless. Of course with my
present students, I could expect this IF they had the knowledge of any
chords and function they would be likely not to make the connection,
but they are middle school students and their minds are on "other
things". Please don't take this as an insult or anything, I just don't
understand and being a teacher, I just like to know how students think
so that I can try to plug up any holes in my presentations when I
teach things like this.

The problem is with the close relationship of the two chords and your
apparent understanding of the function of the viio (the expectation)
since the chord you don't recognize would generally suggest the exact
same expectation.

Hope you understand my puzzlement!
LJS
WeReo_BoY
2010-04-18 08:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
I don't do simple chord questions anymore.
Tom K.
2010-04-18 15:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by WeReo_BoY
I don't do simple chord questions anymore.
And we're all thankful for that!

Tom
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2010-04-20 02:18:22 UTC
Permalink
SOUND 1100, 10
PLAY "C+"
SOUND 1300, 10
PLAY "E"
SOUND 1750, 10
PLAY "A"
SOUND 1800, 10
' Seventeen-fifty matches, and eighteen hundred sounds better to me
' in series (11:13:18). It is context sensitive, of course.
_______
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Sound/Sucker.mp3
If it sounds too good to be true, then don't be a sucker.
unknown
2011-05-20 09:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Not real timely, but it is probably the V chord in 2nd inversion (vii
in root is the same thing :o)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT), Barry
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
Alain Naigeon
2011-05-20 20:30:15 UTC
Permalink
--

Français *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
Alain Naigeon - ***@free.fr - Oberhoffen/Moder, France
http://fr.youtube.com/user/AlainNaigeon
Post by unknown
Not real timely, but it is probably the V chord in 2nd inversion (vii
in root is the same thing :o)
First inversion ;-) (typo, I'm sure)
Post by unknown
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT), Barry
Post by Barry
Hi,
Im learning a tune in d major which contains a chord with the notes C#
E A. I was expecting vii0 (diminished) here. What is this chord and is
its chord symbol V3?
Thanks,
Barry
---
Antivirus avast! : message Sortant sain.
Base de donnees virale (VPS) : 110520-1, 20/05/2011
Analyse le : 20/05/2011 22:30:19
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.
http://www.avast.com
Tom K.
2011-05-21 15:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Not real timely, but it is probably the V chord in 2nd inversion (vii
in root is the same thing :o)
First inversion ;-) (typo, I'm sure)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And we covered that in multiple posts over a year ago.

(Perhaps the ghost of AS will now return!)

Tom
J.B. Wood
2011-05-23 10:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
(Perhaps the ghost of AS will now return!)
Tom
Be, afraid, Tom. Be very afraid. Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail: ***@hotmail.com
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