Some thouhts about tonality

[Vilen]

The further, the more critical I perceive the explanations of music
phenomena by established theory. I am thinking about several themes
in the same time and now want to speak about tonality.
Wikipedia about tonality:
"Tonality is a system of music in which specific hierarchical pitch
relationships are based on a key "center", or tonic."
I think that tonality implies pertinent scale and composition way
which systematic repeats tonic note or its partials thank to partials
of another notes(chords).
Wikipedia about cadence(and tonality):
"Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense
that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece.[1]
Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."
I like to think that the "cradle of tonality" were major and minor
triads. When suitable for accords instruments began be used in secular
music the facts came to light gradually that major and minor triad are
most euphonious.
From the other hand all church scales included fifth interval relative
tonic note and locrian scale which didn't include it wasn't used. It
indicates that origin of tonality was the fifth interval. Indeed,
notes with this distance has essential horizontal ties thank to their
2,3,4 harmonics. Therefore dominant note of the every used modal scale
supported its tonic note and vice versa. However corresponding
attraction to tonic was weak.
When major and minor triad were elicited then further were elicited
diatonic scales in which triads triads correspond tonic, dominant and
sub dominant notes. Clearly it is major and minor scales. Use of major
and minor triads in bass area of tonic, dominant and sub dominant
notes provided the sense of attraction to these notes and is able to
do music tonal. By the way, dyads (parts of these triads) with fifth
or forth distances may play analogous role what arguably took place on
some stage of development. The afore said explains why the jazz or
pentatonic scales may provide tonality and whole tone scale doesn't.
I want to accent that tonality in common music is based on OTS which
inherent for common music instruments. I experiments with melodic
harmonic system which freely provides tonality for all a.m. scales and
chromatic one.

Yuri Vilenkin

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Vilen
"Tonality is a system of music in which specific hierarchical pitch
relationships are based on a key "center", or tonic."
I think that tonality implies pertinent scale and composition way
which systematic repeats tonic note or its partials thank to partials
of another notes(chords).

Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.

Post by Vilen
"Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense
that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece.[1]
Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."
I like to think that the "cradle of tonality" were major and minor
triads. When suitable for accords instruments began be used in secular
music the facts came to light gradually that major and minor triad are
most euphonious.

So here, major-minor harmony is essential.

Post by Vilen
From the other hand all church scales included fifth interval relative
tonic note and locrian scale which didn't include it wasn't used.

By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis,
which typically are not reinforced by harmony, though there may be some
elements of it.

For example, in the Balkan scale hitzaz (E F G# A B C' D'), there is a
finalis on E, but one may have a section with chord Dm that, without a
cadenza sort of flips over the E major triad. Example: Boris Karlov,
Gankino, BHA 402:
http://www.dunav.org.il/music/254_Gankino_Horo.mp3
The D acts as a cofinalis. There is a microtonal variation in the
Persian dastgah-e homayun, see the book by Hormoz Farhat.

Hans

[WeReo_BoY]

Post by Hans Aberg

Post by Vilen
"Tonality is a system of music in which specific hierarchical pitch
relationships are based on a key "center", or tonic."
I think that tonality implies pertinent scale and composition way
which systematic repeats tonic note or its partials thank to partials
of another notes(chords).

Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.

Post by Vilen
"Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense
that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece.[1]
Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."
I like to think that the "cradle of tonality" were major and minor
triads. When suitable for accords instruments began be used in secular
music the facts came to light gradually that major and minor triad are
most euphonious.

So here, major-minor harmony is essential.

Post by Vilen
From the other hand all church scales included fifth interval relative
tonic note and locrian scale which didn't include it wasn't used.

By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis, which
typically are not reinforced by harmony, though there may be some elements
of it.
For example, in the Balkan scale hitzaz (E F G# A B C' D'), there is a
finalis on E, but one may have a section with chord Dm that, without a
cadenza sort of flips over the E major triad. Example: Boris Karlov,
http://www.dunav.org.il/music/254_Gankino_Horo.mp3
The D acts as a cofinalis. There is a microtonal variation in the Persian
dastgah-e homayun, see the book by Hormoz Farhat.
Hans

You too.

[Vilen]

Post by Hans Aberg
Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.
So here, major-minor harmony is essential.
By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis,
which typically are not reinforced by harmony,
though there may be some elements of it.

By major-minor harmony or church modes one must use however (for
strict sense) trivial repetitions of central note (accordingly tonic
or tenor-confinalis). That corresponds to old anecdote: walk on water
over stones as all others.

Yuri

[WeReo_BoY]

Post by Vilen

Post by Hans Aberg
Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.
So here, major-minor harmony is essential.
By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis,
which typically are not reinforced by harmony,
though there may be some elements of it.

By major-minor harmony or church modes one must use however (for
strict sense) trivial repetitions of central note (accordingly tonic
or tenor-confinalis). That corresponds to old anecdote: walk on water
over stones as all others.
Yuri

Yeah, yeah...

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Vilen

Post by Hans Aberg
Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.
So here, major-minor harmony is essential.
By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis,
which typically are not reinforced by harmony,
though there may be some elements of it.

By major-minor harmony or church modes one must use however (for
strict sense) trivial repetitions of central note (accordingly tonic
or tenor-confinalis). That corresponds to old anecdote: walk on water
over stones as all others.

Harmony is the simultaneous sounding of notes. If in the diatonic scale
there a movement around E; then that is a modal center. If adding the
triad C E G, then C becomes the tonal center, the tonic in C major.

Hans

[Tom K.]

Post by Vilen

Post by Hans Aberg
Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.
So here, major-minor harmony is essential.
By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis,
which typically are not reinforced by harmony,
though there may be some elements of it.

By major-minor harmony or church modes one must use however (for
strict sense) trivial repetitions of central note (accordingly tonic
or tenor-confinalis). That corresponds to old anecdote: walk on water
over stones as all others.

Harmony is the simultaneous sounding of notes. If in the diatonic scale
there a movement around E; then that is a modal center. If adding the
triad C E G, then C becomes the tonal center, the tonic in C major.

Hans
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I think we should also differentiate Common Practice tonality which must
involve functional root movement of triads and (some) seventh chords.

Simply establishing a C major triad as a center is not enough for CP
tonality - for example, one could repeat the chord succession of C, G, F,
Em, Dm, C to establish a CENTER on C, but not a TONIC (in the CP sense) of
C.

Tom

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Tom K.

Post by Hans Aberg

Post by Hans Aberg
Tonality is in strict sense a harmonic center, though the term is also
used in other ways.
So here, major-minor harmony is essential.
By contrast, modal music have important notes, such as the finalis,
which typically are not reinforced by harmony,
though there may be some elements of it.

By major-minor harmony or church modes one must use however (for
strict sense) trivial repetitions of central note (accordingly tonic
or tenor-confinalis). That corresponds to old anecdote: walk on water
over stones as all others.

Harmony is the simultaneous sounding of notes. If in the diatonic scale
there a movement around E; then that is a modal center. If adding the
triad C E G, then C becomes the tonal center, the tonic in C major.

...

Post by Tom K.
But I think we should also differentiate Common Practice tonality which
must involve functional root movement of triads and (some) seventh chords.
Simply establishing a C major triad as a center is not enough for CP
tonality - for example, one could repeat the chord succession of C, G,
F, Em, Dm, C to establish a CENTER on C, but not a TONIC (in the CP
sense) of C.

The hitzaz scale in E (notes as A harmonic minor) I mentioned has the
expectation to move from Dm to E. If one is not used to it, one may
think of it as though it changes harmonic center by sort of fliiping over.

Similarly, in CPP, a cadence should over from the dominant or
subdominant, otherwise it may sound unfinished. This happens in "The
First Noel".

So the question is if this depends on more than expectation.

Hans

[Vilen]

Post by Hans Aberg
Similarly, in CPP, a cadence should over from the dominant or
subdominant, otherwise it may sound unfinished. This happens in "The
First Noel".

There is interesting article "Empirical comparisons of pitch patterns
in music,
speech, and birdsong" (http://vesicle.nsi.edu/users/patel/
Tierney_Russo_Patel_ASA_2008.pdf). These researches indicated, in
particular, that durations of final pitches of phrases surpass these
of nor-final ones for all music, speech, and birdsong. It means that
long notes in cadences have firm biological basis. Clearly it isn't'
so about harmony. However, it is curious, that birds have 2 syrinxes
as sourses of sound and some of them are able to display dyads ( see
for example http://twotrees.www.50megs.com/attic/trivia/birds.html ).
Nevertheless they are very far from major-minor harmony. The a.m.
researches show that there are another common melody features. I like
to think that as exactly melody corresponds listener's image of music
then rules for cadences must be formulated with help of melody
elements. I looked through several fake books and almost ever melody
notes haven't leaps in final cadence. It is characteristic that
perfect authentic cadence hasn't leaps in melody line.
Concerning "The First Noel": The last but one bar includes long an
strong tonic pitch. Probably it disturbs perception of last bar as
final.

Yuri Vilenkin

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Vilen

Post by Hans Aberg
Similarly, in CPP, a cadence should over from the dominant or
subdominant, otherwise it may sound unfinished. This happens in "The
First Noel".

There is interesting article "Empirical comparisons of pitch patterns
in music,
speech, and birdsong" (http://vesicle.nsi.edu/users/patel/
Tierney_Russo_Patel_ASA_2008.pdf). These researches indicated, in
particular, that durations of final pitches of phrases surpass these
of nor-final ones for all music, speech, and birdsong. It means that
long notes in cadences have firm biological basis. Clearly it isn't'
so about harmony.

Birds in general cannot transpose, it seems, in view of that when one in
the past taught them to sing, one used special flutes in their singing
range. They copy what they hear.

Music interpretation in phrases imitates human language, and the latter
may be tied to the ability to transpose - without it, one would not be
able to recognize transposed words. And birds do not have language in
the human sense, but perhaps they still need ways to mark the end of a
phrase.

Post by Vilen
However, it is curious, that birds have 2 syrinxes
as sourses of sound and some of them are able to display dyads ( see
for example http://twotrees.www.50megs.com/attic/trivia/birds.html ).

It would be interesting to know what dyads they use.

Post by Vilen
Nevertheless they are very far from major-minor harmony. The a.m.
researches show that there are another common melody features. I like
to think that as exactly melody corresponds listener's image of music
then rules for cadences must be formulated with help of melody
elements. I looked through several fake books and almost ever melody
notes haven't leaps in final cadence. It is characteristic that
perfect authentic cadence hasn't leaps in melody line.
Concerning "The First Noel": The last but one bar includes long an
strong tonic pitch. Probably it disturbs perception of last bar as
final.

Hitzaz (in E same as A harmonic minor) may have a section with the chord
Dm, at the end shifting over to E (major triad). Similarly, in the
church mode E Phrygian, chords Dm -> Em works fine. This breaks away
from CPP rules.

So a question is what any underlying rules there may be, and how much
depends on culture.

Hans

[Vilen]

Post by Hans Aberg
Harmony is the simultaneous sounding of notes.

It is necessary to define more precicely. There is notion of harmony
as simultaneous sounding of notes and there is harmony as part of
music theory which considers interaction of these ones during the time
as well (chief occupation). By the way, ancient greeks found harmony
in succesive notes of diatonic scale and even transfered it on
totality of planets Moon, Mercur, Venus. Sun, Mars, Yupiter, Saturn.

Post by Hans Aberg
If in the diatonic scale
there a movement around E; then that is a modal center. If adding the
triad C E G, then C becomes the tonal center, the tonic in C major.

If triads absent then E is everage pitch and in the same time a weak
center of vertical ties thank to its overtones..
If we add triad C E G to essential part of melody notes then C will
be tonal center as it is tied to G and E of triad and possible melody
notes G,F (2,3,4 overtones), E (4,5 overtones), E (2,3-leading pitch
to
C), B (leading note to C).

Yuri Vilenkin

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Vilen

Post by Hans Aberg
Harmony is the simultaneous sounding of notes.

It is necessary to define more precicely. There is notion of harmony
as simultaneous sounding of notes and there is harmony as part of
music theory which considers interaction of these ones during the time
as well (chief occupation). By the way, ancient greeks found harmony
in succesive notes of diatonic scale and even transfered it on
totality of planets Moon, Mercur, Venus. Sun, Mars, Yupiter, Saturn.

The latter may reduce to the former in view of reverb in (older) Western
buildings. In one extreme case, a basilica, it is 9 seconds. Also, bass
propagates poorly in it, which might increase the importance of
difference tones. In this setting, the major scale would be best.

By contrast, gamelan music is traditionally performed outdoors,
essentially no reverb. It means that harmony only exists when the notes
are simultaneously sounding on the instruments.

Post by Vilen

Post by Hans Aberg
If in the diatonic scale
there a movement around E; then that is a modal center. If adding the
triad C E G, then C becomes the tonal center, the tonic in C major.

If triads absent then E is everage pitch and in the same time a weak
center of vertical ties thank to its overtones..

The ear cannot hear such things. For example, it is impossibly to divide
an interval into two equal parts without tools like a monochord. When
two notes are sounding simultaneously, the beats are heard.

Post by Vilen
If we add triad C E G to essential part of melody notes then C will
be tonal center as it is tied to G and E of triad and possible melody
notes G,F (2,3,4 overtones), E (4,5 overtones), E (2,3-leading pitch
to
C), B (leading note to C).

So when the chord is actually present physically or mentally by
expectation derived from experience, you get the tonal center. It does
not work that does not use major-minor harmony.

Hans

[WeReo_BoY]

Post by Vilen
The further, the more critical I perceive the explanations of music
phenomena by established theory. I am thinking about several themes
in the same time and now want to speak about tonality.
"Tonality is a system of music in which specific hierarchical pitch
relationships are based on a key "center", or tonic."
I think that tonality implies pertinent scale and composition way
which systematic repeats tonic note or its partials thank to partials
of another notes(chords).
"Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense
that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece.[1]
Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."
I like to think that the "cradle of tonality" were major and minor
triads. When suitable for accords instruments began be used in secular
music the facts came to light gradually that major and minor triad are
most euphonious.
From the other hand all church scales included fifth interval relative
tonic note and locrian scale which didn't include it wasn't used. It
indicates that origin of tonality was the fifth interval. Indeed,
notes with this distance has essential horizontal ties thank to their
2,3,4 harmonics. Therefore dominant note of the every used modal scale
supported its tonic note and vice versa. However corresponding
attraction to tonic was weak.
When major and minor triad were elicited then further were elicited
diatonic scales in which triads triads correspond tonic, dominant and
sub dominant notes. Clearly it is major and minor scales. Use of major
and minor triads in bass area of tonic, dominant and sub dominant
notes provided the sense of attraction to these notes and is able to
do music tonal. By the way, dyads (parts of these triads) with fifth
or forth distances may play analogous role what arguably took place on
some stage of development. The afore said explains why the jazz or
pentatonic scales may provide tonality and whole tone scale doesn't.
I want to accent that tonality in common music is based on OTS which
inherent for common music instruments. I experiments with melodic
harmonic system which freely provides tonality for all a.m. scales and
chromatic one.
Yuri Vilenkin

Don't even try it with me.

[LJS]

The further, the more critical I  perceive the explanations of music
phenomena by established  theory. I am thinking about several themes
in the same time and now want to speak about tonality.
"Tonality is a system of music in which specific hierarchical pitch
relationships are based on a key "center", or tonic."
I think  that tonality implies pertinent scale and composition way
which systematic repeats tonic note or its partials thank to partials
of another notes(chords).
"Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense
that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece.[1]
Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."
 I like to think that the "cradle of tonality" were major and minor
triads. When suitable for accords instruments began be used in secular
music the facts came to light gradually that major and minor triad are
most euphonious.
From the other hand all church scales included fifth interval relative
tonic note and  locrian scale which didn't include it wasn't used. It
indicates that origin of tonality was the fifth interval. Indeed,
notes with this distance  has essential horizontal ties thank to their
2,3,4 harmonics. Therefore dominant note of the every used modal scale
supported its tonic note and vice versa. However corresponding
attraction to tonic was weak.
 When major and minor triad were elicited then further were elicited
diatonic scales in which triads triads correspond tonic, dominant and
sub dominant notes. Clearly it is major and minor scales. Use of major
and minor triads in bass area of tonic, dominant and sub dominant
notes provided the sense of  attraction to these notes and is  able to
do music tonal. By the way, dyads (parts of these triads) with fifth
or forth distances may play analogous role what arguably took place on
some  stage of development. The afore said explains why the jazz or
pentatonic scales may provide tonality and whole tone scale doesn't.
I want to accent that tonality in  common music is based on OTS which
inherent for common music instruments. I experiments with melodic
harmonic system which freely provides tonality for all a.m. scales and
chromatic one.
Yuri Vilenkin

No, its not. Scales are tools. Tonality can be created using these
tools to create a sense of tonality. They are used in ways to create
cadences. It is the cadences that create tonality.

Even Wiki has picked up on the basics of tonality. Why do you want to
reinvent the wheel? They got it right in this case. Scales are used to
make cadences then you have tonality. If the scales do not produce
cadences, then you don't have a strong tonality.

Scales are the tools. Cadences define tonality. (there can be melodic
cadences as well as chordal cadences as well)

LJS

[Vilen]

Post by LJS
Scales are tools. Tonality can be created using these
tools to create a sense of tonality. They are used in ways to create
cadences. It is the cadences that create tonality.

It follows from this passage that there isn't tonality without
cadences.
However:
Harvard music dictionary about cadence: Loyalty to a tonic, in the
broadest sense of the word. one of the most striking phenomena of
music is the fact that ,throughout its evolution...........every
single piece give preference to one tone (the tonic) making this the
tonal center to which all other tones are related.

In the same place about cadence:
a melodic or harmonic formula that occurs at the end of composition ,
a section, or phrase, conveying the impression of momentary or
permanent conclusion.

I dare to say that the matter is vice versa: without previous loyalty
to tonic its expectation is impossible and final cadence too.
By the way R.Wagner avoided to use final cadences.

Post by LJS
Even Wiki has picked up on the basics of tonality. Why do you want to
reinvent the wheel?

I didn't fully understand. Wiki isn't source of absolute truth but why
there is "even Wiki."

Yuri Vilenkin

[Tom K.]

"Vilen" wrote in message news:02ce956a-70a6-475e-a1e6-***@k5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

By the way R.Wagner avoided to use final cadences.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which is one reason some (but not all) of his music is better described as
"centric" than "tonal". Using the Tristan prelude as an example, it may be
thought of as being essentially centered on A and C, but it is not in the
key of A nor the key of C. "Centric" (as defined by Ben Boretz, IIRC) would
refer to music with one or more pitch centers but without the functional
triadic harmony of CPP tonality - cadences being an important component. (A
subset of this class might be music with functional harmony, but
simultaneous multiple key centers, such as Coltrane's Giant Steps" and many
passages of Charles Ives)

However you wish to term his music, Wagner contributed more to the
"dissolution" of CPP tonality, rather than it's continuance.

Tom

[LJS]

Post by Vilen
By the way R.Wagner avoided to use final cadences.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
Which is one reason some (but not all) of his music is better described as
"centric" than "tonal".  Using the Tristan prelude as an example, it may be
thought of as being essentially centered on A and C, but it is not in the
key of A nor the key of C.  "Centric" (as defined by Ben Boretz, IIRC) would
refer to music with one or more pitch centers but without the functional
triadic harmony of CPP tonality - cadences being an important component.  (A
subset of this class might be music with functional harmony, but
simultaneous multiple key centers, such as Coltrane's Giant Steps" and many
passages of Charles Ives)
However you wish to term his music, Wagner contributed more to the
"dissolution" of CPP tonality, rather than it's continuance.
Tom

Good stuff, but you have been slightly led into the fallacy. Half
cadences also create a tonic albeit a temporary tonic. In tonal music,
the cadence is really dependent on the V7 for its key. Wagner does
exactly what you describe by using half cadences and deceptive
cadences to deviate from the more clear cut "one key center" approach
to music. Cadences still determine tonality even if they are not
traditional functional harmonic pieces. This is partially by
definition, but is also a matter of tension and relaxation and other
techniques that determine the key. The immediate assumption is that a
cadence is V-I, but this is only the rule in CPP music. When one gets
to the fringes of the CPP, the cadences adjust to the music being
written.
Of course, when tonality breaks down, so do the cadences but this only
goes to show that without cadences, there is no tonality! ;-)

Glad to see we can still have discussions inbetween all this
Weridness.

[LJS]

Post by Vilen

Post by LJS
Scales are tools. Tonality can be created using these
tools to create a sense of tonality. They are used in ways to create
cadences. It is the cadences that create tonality.

It follows from this passage that there isn't tonality without
cadences.
Harvard music dictionary about cadence: Loyalty to a tonic, in the
broadest sense of the word. one of the most striking phenomena of
music is the fact that ,throughout its evolution...........every
single piece give preference to one tone (the tonic) making this the
tonal center to which all other tones are related.
a melodic or harmonic formula that occurs at the end of composition ,
a section, or phrase, conveying the impression of momentary or
permanent conclusion.
 I dare to say that the matter is vice versa: without previous loyalty
to tonic its expectation is impossible and final cadence too.
By the way R.Wagner avoided to use final cadences.

Post by LJS
Even Wiki has picked up on the basics of tonality. Why do you want to
reinvent the wheel?

I didn't fully understand. Wiki isn't source of absolute truth but why
there is "even Wiki."
Yuri Vilenkin

There is a name for that fallacy, but it evades me at the moment but
the fallacy is that you are using quoting a description of tonality "
Loyalty to a tonic, in the

Post by Vilen
broadest sense of the word. one of the most striking phenomena of
music is the fact that ,throughout its evolution...........every
single piece give preference to one tone (the tonic) making this the
tonal center to which all other tones are related"

The fallacy is that you are using this "definition" which is in one
context of tonality, a more "music appreciation" definition, in the
context of music theory. If you notice, there is no specific reference
to what this "magical" element is that "gives preference to one tone".
If you analyze the music what are you going to say? Pointing out that
one tone has preference as tonic without saying WHY is not saying
anything from a music theory sense.

In harmonic music, it is the harmonic cadence and in melodic music it
is the melodic cadence and it can be the combination of the two. It
can also be a half cadence or a full cadence or a deceptive cadence.
This occurs in all tonal music. The fallacy is that you are using a
definition from one context to support an argument in another context.
This creates a fallacy and your conclusion is simply false.

[LJS]

Post by Vilen
 I dare to say that the matter is vice versa: without previous loyalty
to tonic its expectation is impossible and final cadence too.
By the way R.Wagner avoided to use final cadences.

Actually, not so much. You see, this is another fallacy of sorts. In
your first out of context definition you used to erroneously "prove"
your point, you are now mis-using the music appreciation definition
incorrectly.

As far as I can remember, Wagner uses a full cadence at end of all
pieces and major sections. This is what a final cadence is and these
too can be full or half or deceptive. But you are using this context
of your out of context definition to point out the internal and
temporary cadences that are frequent in his piece. Tom missed that
just as I did the first time I read you post. His correctly pointing
out the centrist quality of his music is concerning the internal
temporary modulations that are characteristic of his music as well as
a simpler example of Giant Streps. But these are not FINAL cadences.

If you really want to understand this, you have to keep things in the
proper contexts.

Post by Vilen

Post by LJS
Even Wiki has picked up on the basics of tonality. Why do you want to
reinvent the wheel?

I didn't fully understand. Wiki isn't source of absolute truth but why
there is "even Wiki."
Yuri Vilenkin

Wiki is an experiment. It has mixed results. It provides people's
opinion (in some cases) that are posted and eventually corrected or
refined by people as time goes on. Or not in some cases. As such, it
can not be totally relied upon as truth although sometimes it is very
accurate. In fact, I have been impressed with its accuracy on many
subjects and it is very convenient as everyone that has a particular
specialty can write articles on what he knows. Most of the information
in Wiki is correct and it is convenient. I use it for a "jumping off"
place when I am looking for music on a new topic. If I am using it for
music, I am much more qualified to judge if the information is correct
or not and I may use it as a quick reference.

Wiki has its place. I would not, however, suggest that you turn in a
dissertation with all the references from Wiki unless you enjoy being
embarrassed.

LJS

[Vilen]

Post by LJS
Most of the information
in Wiki is correct and it is convenient. I use it for a "jumping off"
place when I am looking for music on a new topic. If I am using it for
music, I am much more qualified to judge if the information is correct
or not and I may use it as a quick reference

Dear LJS, Your habit to preach and set yourself as an example is
somewhat incorrect.

Post by LJS
Scales are tools. Tonality can be created using these
tools to create a sense of tonality. They are used in ways to create
cadences. It is the cadences that create tonality.

What is a way? Does this way refers only to ending points? Your claim
corresponds a kind about which tells this quotation from site
http://www.tonalcentre.org/ :
"Tonality is a word that has been given many definitions, and most of
these are very broad - but that is because it is a concept which is
easily obscured by its subtelty, and forgotten because of its
pervasiveness."
The question arises: how much is such notion useful?

The feel of ending point demands that its sound would be good known to
listener and this familiarity must be provided by previous music
segment.

There is man Tom Sutcliffe( http://www.harmony.org.uk/) which indeed
wants to determine harmony in common music in a new fashion (to invent
wheel, as you says ). He gives following definition of tonality:
"Term used to denote the western system of music which is based on
major and minor keys and a series of chords and notes related to a
central tonic note which determines the key of a piece.
For a piece to sound truly tonal it must follow the tonal rules of
chord syntax, voice leading syntax, chord progression syntax and
phrase syntax."
I.e tonality refers to music created according certain rules.

I myself consider Wiki article about tonalty as superficial and
intend to write about this later.

Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

[Tom K.]

"Vilen" wrote in message news:e6554b36-4fdd-4329-af83-***@q30g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...


What is a way? Does this way refers only to ending points? Your claim
corresponds a kind about which tells this quotation from site
http://www.tonalcentre.org/ :
"Tonality is a word that has been given many definitions, and most of
these are very broad - but that is because it is a concept which is
easily obscured by its subtelty, and forgotten because of its
pervasiveness."
The question arises: how much is such notion useful?

Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin

Thanks for that link, Yuri, but this larger quote from that site is even
worse:

"Tonality describes the relationships between the elements of melody and
harmony - tones, intervals, chords, scales, and the chromatic gamut; but
particularly those types of relationship that are characterised as
hierarchical, such that one of the elements dominates or attracts another.
These relationships occur both within and between every type of element,
making a complex weave between a tone and its melodic, harmonic, and
chromatic contexts. When this weave is coherent and stable we have a tonal
system which is coherent and stable. The major and minor scale systems and
the part that they play as members of the chromatic gamut is one such
system."

While I never asked a student to "define tonality" on an exam, the above
reply would have been given a D-. It has lots of buzzwords (including one
of my favorites, "hierarchical"), but upon close reading, it says virtually
nothing about tonal center, functional triadic harmony, structural vs.
decorative tones & chords, etc., etc.

Tom

[LJS]

Post by Vilen

Post by LJS
Most of the information
in Wiki is correct and it is convenient. I use it for a "jumping off"
place when I am looking for music on a new topic. If I am using it for
music, I am much more qualified to judge if the information is correct
or not and I may use it as a quick reference

Dear LJS, Your habit to preach and set yourself as an example is
somewhat incorrect.

Lol, funny. I am not setting an example. Music theory it the example.
Your statements are not supprted by facts or logic. Its really as
simple as that. Preaching is trying to sell someone an opinion.
Stating facts and pointing out your misunderstandings is teaching. If
you were correct with your opinions you would back them up with facts
instead of whining everytime you are called out for not learning the
lesson. Its really as simple as that.

Post by Vilen

Post by LJS
Scales are tools. Tonality can be created using these
tools to create a sense of tonality. They are used in ways to create
cadences. It is the cadences that create tonality.

What is a way?
Does this way refers only to ending points? Your claim
"Tonality is a word that has been given many definitions, and most of
these are very broad - but that is because it is a concept which is
easily obscured by its subtelty, and forgotten because of its
pervasiveness."

There is a good example. All flourish and no substance. A statement
totally without any facts contained in it. Its just what is generally
called "fluff".

Post by Vilen
The question arises: how much is such notion useful?

What question? This notion is not useful at all. All it says is that
there are many definitions and most of them are useless. (very broad,
is a uphemism for "useless, in case you don't undersatand the
language.) And he is one of the few that are obscured by its
subtleness. Music theorests are not "obscured" tonality has specific
rules that have been proven over time to properly describe tonality.

"and forgotten because of its pervasiveness." You are joking aren't
you? I have not forgotten the concept of tonality. And even if I did,
there would still be tonality and it would still be defined by
cadential practices. And what is supposed to be pervasive anyway? Do
you want an example of a bullshit music appreciation definition? Well,
this is a good one. You would be laughed out of any reputable music
school with this. Tom is too generous. In a lot of places you would
simply get an "F" and probably a meeting with the Head of the
Department who would suggest that you find another major.

Post by Vilen
The feel of ending point demands that its sound would be good known to
listener and this familiarity must be provided by previous music
segment.

You are getting close to defining a Cadence. You would be "good known"
if the previous music segment was a cadence patterns leading to a
cadence.

Post by Vilen
There is man Tom Sutcliffe( http://www.harmony.org.uk/) which indeed
wants to determine harmony in common music in a new fashion (to invent
wheel, as you says ).

That is RE-invent the wheel. Just like tonality, the wheel has already
been invented.

Post by Vilen
"Term used to denote the western system of music which is based on
major and minor keys and a series of chords and notes related to a
central tonic note which determines the key of a piece.

This is limiting to only the CPP for one thing and says nothing about
what determines a Tonality. If it told you what actually determines
the key to the piece it could fall under the umbrella of Music Theory.
But it misses the mark.

Post by Vilen
For a piece to sound truly tonal it must follow the tonal rules of
chord syntax, voice leading syntax, chord progression syntax and
phrase syntax."

And the syntax is...?

Post by Vilen
I.e tonality refers to music created according certain rules.

i.e. the certain rules are the rules of Cadence". Yes go on... fill in
the blank? What are the rules of syntax and what are the "according to
certain rules"? If you analyze music instead of avoiding the music
itself, you will discover that these rules are CADENTIAL rules that
describe tonality in very real and

Post by Vilen
I myself consider Wiki article about tonalty as superficial and
intend to write about this later.

Yes it is superficial. And yet, it is much more on target than yours.
That is how far you are off topic.

Post by Vilen
Best regards
Yuri Vilenkin