Discussion:
Correct pronunciation of "Clavier"
(too old to reply)
Glarb Shattenstein
2005-01-21 04:21:19 UTC
Permalink
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie01.wav=clavier
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie02.wav=clavier
So either "cla-veer" or "cla-ve-ur."

Glarb
IPGrunt
2005-01-21 06:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glarb Shattenstein
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie01.wav=clavier
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie02.wav=clavier
So either "cla-veer" or "cla-ve-ur."
Glarb
Bonjour,

How about "cla-vee-ay"?
Fred
2005-01-21 07:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by IPGrunt
How about "cla-vee-ay"?
Correct (in french)
RM.
2005-01-21 10:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by IPGrunt
How about "cla-vee-ay"?
Correct (in french)
Not so correct in French because the last syllab is "closed" (é) not open
( è which is symbolized by -ay )

Regine ( French )
David Webber
2005-01-21 12:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glarb Shattenstein
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie01.wav=clavier
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie02.wav=clavier
So either "cla-veer" or "cla-ve-ur."
Glarb
The first recording is more like the two words "clay veer". It
would never be pronounced anything like that in Britain.

The second with a short 'a' and stress on the 2nd syllable is the
equivalent of the British pronunciation but with an American accent
:-) (It is also equivalent to the the German "Klavier"
pronounced with an American accent.)

I mention the accents merely because the difference in the American
and British pronunciations is probably at least as great as the
already mentioned difference in the French é and the attempted "ay"
phonetic transliteration. :-)

Dave
--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mzusers/mailinglist.htm
RM.
2005-01-21 16:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Webber
:-) (It is also equivalent to the the German "Klavier"
pronounced with an American accent.)
There is a difference in pronunciation in German ( Klavier ) compared to the
French ( Clavier ) There is also a difference of meaning as Klavier means
(upright ) piano, while the French clavier means keyboard.

Régine
David Webber
2005-01-21 17:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by RM.
Post by David Webber
:-) (It is also equivalent to the the German "Klavier"
pronounced with an American accent.)
There is a difference in pronunciation in German ( Klavier )
compared to the
French ( Clavier )
Bien sur!

The German pronunciation (allowing for diversity accents) is closer
to the English as I noted.
Post by RM.
There is also a difference of meaning as Klavier means
(upright ) piano, while the French clavier means keyboard.
I was under the impression Klavier meant piano in general terms
(like the English word "piano") whereas Fluegel is reserved
explicitly for "grand piano". And of course "Schifferklavier" =
accordion. :-)

[Hein spielt abends so schoen auf dem Schifferklavier!]

Dave
--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
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RM.
2005-01-22 12:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Webber
I was under the impression Klavier meant piano in general terms
(like the English word "piano") whereas Fluegel is reserved
explicitly for "grand piano". And of course "Schifferklavier" =
accordion. :-)
You might be correct, like in French "piano" and piano à queue" for grand
Piano. I do know that Flügel explicitely means Grand Piano.
derekd
2005-01-23 05:57:02 UTC
Permalink
It is pronounced....


PEE - YAAH - NO

Derek
<><
Post by RM.
Post by David Webber
I was under the impression Klavier meant piano in general terms
(like the English word "piano") whereas Fluegel is reserved
explicitly for "grand piano". And of course "Schifferklavier" =
accordion. :-)
You might be correct, like in French "piano" and piano à queue" for grand
Piano. I do know that Flügel explicitely means Grand Piano.
Matthew Fields
2005-01-23 08:41:28 UTC
Permalink
"Clavier" or "Klavier" is generic and includes organs, harpischords,
and clavichords as well as mini-Moogs etc.
Post by derekd
It is pronounced....
PEE - YAAH - NO
Derek
<><
Post by RM.
Post by David Webber
I was under the impression Klavier meant piano in general terms
(like the English word "piano") whereas Fluegel is reserved
explicitly for "grand piano". And of course "Schifferklavier" =
accordion. :-)
You might be correct, like in French "piano" and piano à queue" for grand
Piano. I do know that Flügel explicitely means Grand Piano.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
RM.
2005-01-23 08:43:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
"Clavier" or "Klavier" is generic and includes organs, harpischords,
and clavichords as well as mini-Moogs etc.
In which language? Definitely not in French ! Clavier means exactly
keyboard, nothing more, nothing less.
David Webber
2005-01-23 10:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by RM.
Post by Matthew Fields
"Clavier" or "Klavier" is generic and includes organs,
harpischords,
and clavichords as well as mini-Moogs etc.
In which language? Definitely not in French ! Clavier means
exactly
keyboard, nothing more, nothing less.
The set of instruments Matt indicates are known as "keyboard
instruments". (His examples, as he indicates, are just a few.
For example he missed the virginal.)

Dave
--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mzusers/mailinglist.htm
Matthew Fields
2005-01-23 13:55:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by RM.
Post by Matthew Fields
"Clavier" or "Klavier" is generic and includes organs, harpischords,
and clavichords as well as mini-Moogs etc.
In which language? Definitely not in French ! Clavier means exactly
keyboard, nothing more, nothing less.
That's right, and keyboard includes any instrument with a keyboard.
So definitely in French as well as other languages. By no means is
it limited to the pianoforte keyboard.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
RM.
2005-01-23 13:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
That's right, and keyboard includes any instrument with a keyboard.
So definitely in French as well as other languages. By no means is
it limited to the pianoforte keyboard.
Right, but the word "clavier" means "keyboard". When you want to speak of an
instrument with a keyboard ( piano, organ etc...) you have to say
"instrument à clavier" otherwise nobody will understand what you mean.
Matthew Fields
2005-01-23 14:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by RM.
Post by Matthew Fields
That's right, and keyboard includes any instrument with a keyboard.
So definitely in French as well as other languages. By no means is
it limited to the pianoforte keyboard.
Right, but the word "clavier" means "keyboard". When you want to speak of an
instrument with a keyboard ( piano, organ etc...) you have to say
"instrument à clavier" otherwise nobody will understand what you mean.
In French, perhaps. Neither in English nor German. So I guess that answers
the question of which languages.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Eberhard Sengpiel
2005-01-23 18:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by RM.
Post by Matthew Fields
That's right, and keyboard includes any instrument with a keyboard.
So definitely in French as well as other languages. By no means is
it limited to the pianoforte keyboard.
Right, but the word "clavier" means "keyboard". When you want to
speak of an instrument with a keyboard ( piano, organ etc...) you
have to say "instrument à clavier" otherwise nobody will understand
what you mean.
In French, perhaps. Neither in English nor German. So I guess that
answers the question of which languages.
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.

Cheers

Eberhard Sengpiel
German forum for microphone recordings
and sound studio techniques
http://www.sengpielaudio.com
Matthew Fields
2005-01-23 21:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eberhard Sengpiel
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by RM.
Post by Matthew Fields
That's right, and keyboard includes any instrument with a keyboard.
So definitely in French as well as other languages. By no means is
it limited to the pianoforte keyboard.
Right, but the word "clavier" means "keyboard". When you want to
speak of an instrument with a keyboard ( piano, organ etc...) you
have to say "instrument à clavier" otherwise nobody will understand
what you mean.
In French, perhaps. Neither in English nor German. So I guess that
answers the question of which languages.
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.
Cheers
Whereas a Klavier is an instrument posessing a Klaviatur. Quite so.
We were just remarking upon this.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Lyle K. Neff
2005-01-23 23:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.[...]
Whereas a Klavier is an instrument posessing a Klaviatur. Quite so.
We were just remarking upon this.
In the cosmic scheme of things, then, if a "Klaviatur" (German) or a
"clavier" (French, i.e., "*avec* instrument") falls in the forest, does
it make a sound?
Matthew Fields
2005-01-24 01:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lyle K. Neff
Post by Matthew Fields
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.[...]
Whereas a Klavier is an instrument posessing a Klaviatur. Quite so.
We were just remarking upon this.
In the cosmic scheme of things, then, if a "Klaviatur" (German) or a
"clavier" (French, i.e., "*avec* instrument") falls in the forest, does
it make a sound?
This presumes that it actually *can* fall in a forest. The usual
form of the question goes on--"with nobody around". If you presume
that a keyboard can fall in a forest with nobody around, then it
would be unreasonable to suppose that it doesn't make air pressure
waves the same as always, unless you can provide evidence that
the creation of air pressure waves depends upon having human
ears to receive them.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
David Webber
2005-01-23 23:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eberhard Sengpiel
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.
Except for the ones you type on - one of those is "eine Tastatur" I
believe. You've no idea how convenient it would be if we had
separate words for them in English :-)

Dave
--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mzusers/mailinglist.htm
Eberhard Sengpiel
2005-01-23 23:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Webber
Post by Eberhard Sengpiel
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.
Except for the ones you type on - one of those is "eine Tastatur" I
believe. You've no idea how convenient it would be if we had separate
words for them in English :-)
A Klaviatur (German) has the black and white keys.
A Tastatur (German) is more what a typewriter or a
computer has.

Cheers

Eberhard Sengpiel, Berlin
German forum for microphone recordings
and sound recording techniques
http://www.sengpielaudio.com
Matthew Fields
2005-01-24 01:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eberhard Sengpiel
Post by David Webber
Post by Eberhard Sengpiel
A keyboard is "Klaviatur" in German.
Except for the ones you type on - one of those is "eine Tastatur" I
believe. You've no idea how convenient it would be if we had separate
words for them in English :-)
A Klaviatur (German) has the black and white keys.
A Tastatur (German) is more what a typewriter or a
computer has.
Whereas in English we must say "piano-type keyboard" and
"computer keyboard" or "typewriter keyboard". At least we don't
run them together into compound words to confuse our eyes!
That would be Amuchmoredifficultwayofdoingthings!
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
David Webber
2005-01-24 08:56:29 UTC
Permalink
.... At least we don't
run them together into compound words to confuse our eyes!
That would be Amuchmoredifficultwayofdoingthings!
I beg to differ on two counts:

First, German's way of forming compound nouns is extremely
convenient for us foreign speakers: it means you can (a) understand
the meaning of many words (not all) when you meet them for the first
time, and (b) make yourself understood by forming your own
idiosyncratic ones :-)

Second, English *has* always done it too - eg "skyscraper"
(Wolkenkratzer) not "sky scraper". Furthermore though many English
compounds have used hyphens, there is a modern tendency
(particularly from the USA, it seems to me) to dispense with the
hyphen. And finally there is a really modern tendency (especially
among techies) to form compounds and make them easier, for those
with the above aversion, by introducing capitals at the start of
each element. Both these last two are of course frowned on by
those who like their language "correct" (a word which is defined at
the moment whoever defines it sat their high-school* English exams)
and ignore the act that it is continually changing - English faster
than most.

*Dictionary prefers "high school" as a noun, but traditional grammar
allows me to hyphenate it to form a compound adjective. Next year
it will be either highschool or "highSchool". :-) The German
cognate (not an exact translation) is "Hochschule". I note with
some chagrin that, while Hochschullehrer (Lehrer=teacher) is in my
Duden (the definitive German dictionary), Hochschulpruefung
(Pruefung=exam) is not. This is a pity because it is just the sort
of word I would use: I demand a reference if it ever gets into
Duden - you heard it here first. :-)

Dave
--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mzusers/mailinglist.htm
Matthew Fields
2005-01-24 12:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Webber
.... At least we don't
run them together into compound words to confuse our eyes!
That would be Amuchmoredifficultwayofdoingthings!
First, German's way of forming compound nouns is extremely
convenient for us foreign speakers: it means you can (a) understand
the meaning of many words (not all) when you meet them for the first
time, and (b) make yourself understood by forming your own
idiosyncratic ones :-)
But Dave, that still doesn't avert the tendency for unfamiliar compounds
in our language to confuse the eyes. Where does the first component word
end and the second one begin?
Post by David Webber
Second, English *has* always done it too - eg "skyscraper"
(Wolkenkratzer) not "sky scraper". Furthermore though many English
I just got back from visiting my grandmother (!) in Florida, and let
me tell you, in Florida, the beaches are filled with skys crappers called
seagulls. Fortunately, they left us alone.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
David Webber
2005-01-24 13:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
But Dave, that still doesn't avert the tendency for unfamiliar
compounds
in our language to confuse the eyes. Where does the first
component word
end and the second one begin?
I gather then that you would be as amused as I am, every time I
enter my local Marks and Spencer and see the large sign saying
"menswear". I think "yse they do". Can't help it :-(

Still anything which gives an opportunity for a bad pun, can't be
too evil.

I particularly like German compounds which result in triple
letters - like Auspuffflame (exhaust flame). I used to know the
rules for when you couldn't contract them (eg when the first word
ends with a double consonant and the second begins with the same
letter followed by a consonant) but I suspect they changed them a
few years ago with the Neue Rechtschreibung ("new correct way of
writing" - with its own lovely 7-consonant sequence "chtschr" in the
middle).

BTW: an important question: does anyone know a longer 1-syllable
word that "straight". [This is important for aligning lyric
syllables under notes in my software MOZART - it needs an idea of
how far apart notes are likel;y to have to be spread to fit lyrics
in <g>.]

Dave
--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mzusers/mailinglist.htm
Charlton Wilbur
2005-01-24 16:49:25 UTC
Permalink
DW> I gather then that you would be as amused as I am, every time
DW> I enter my local Marks and Spencer and see the large sign
DW> saying "menswear". I think "yse they do". Can't help it :-(

Wesleyan University (the one in Connecticut) is often abbreviated to
"Wes." A few years back, several of their sports teams had T-shirts
made - they said things like WESSOCCER, WESTENNIS, WESGOLF, with the
WES in outline letters and the name of the sport in solid letters.

Of course, the most sought-after T-shirt was the one for the crew
team: WESCREW.

Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
Tom Korth
2005-01-24 23:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by David Webber
Second, English *has* always done it too - eg "skyscraper"
(Wolkenkratzer) not "sky scraper". Furthermore though many English
I just got back from visiting my grandmother (!) in Florida, and let
me tell you, in Florida, the beaches are filled with skys crappers called
seagulls. Fortunately, they left us alone.
Matt, next time you are in Florida, try to visit Sanibel Island (near Ft.
Myers). Just be aware that the brown pelican skys crappers inhabiting this
lovely island make your seagulls seem like rank amateurs. (Don't ask me how
I know!)

Tom
Matthew Fields
2005-01-24 23:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Korth
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by David Webber
Second, English *has* always done it too - eg "skyscraper"
(Wolkenkratzer) not "sky scraper". Furthermore though many English
I just got back from visiting my grandmother (!) in Florida, and let
me tell you, in Florida, the beaches are filled with skys crappers called
seagulls. Fortunately, they left us alone.
Matt, next time you are in Florida, try to visit Sanibel Island (near Ft.
Myers). Just be aware that the brown pelican skys crappers inhabiting this
lovely island make your seagulls seem like rank amateurs. (Don't ask me how
I know!)
Okay, it's on my list. My parents used to vacation in a little rental
cottage place called Beachcomber Inn 40 years ago, and I remember the
place being just hopping with wildlife, odd little stores, and an
outragously ambitious community playhouse. I drove past the exit off
75 to the causeway last March when I guest-lectured in Tampa and then
spent a week with Grandma.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Mizz Marcia Ryder
2005-01-25 02:49:51 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Glarb Shattenstein
So either "cla-veer" or "cla-ve-ur."
How To Speak Southern, 3rd Edition

Clav-YEAR

Marsha

Don A. Gilmore
2005-01-21 16:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glarb Shattenstein
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie01.wav=clavier
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie02.wav=clavier
So either "cla-veer" or "cla-ve-ur."
Doesn't anyone in this group own a dictionary?

Don
Kansas City
don groves
2005-01-22 06:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don A. Gilmore
Post by Glarb Shattenstein
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie01.wav=clavier
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?clavie02.wav=clavier
So either "cla-veer" or "cla-ve-ur."
Doesn't anyone in this group own a dictionary?
You're used to AUE, eh?
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
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