Discussion:
Once more about triad inversions.
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Vilen
2012-01-30 08:13:15 UTC
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In last year November I tried to clear my questions about this matter
but the initiated discussion deviated in undesirable direction. I am
interesting why the handbooks, Internet sites , etc. consider only 3
orders from possible 6 although they all are used in practice. In try
to understand the matter I formed the table below. The scale
intervals(i) and corresponding distances in semitones(s) from bass
note are indicated in it for major triad c-e-g and its possible
inversions.

c-e-g > 4s/3i, 7s/5i
e-g-c > 3s/3i, 8s/6i C note upwards, 2 notes downwards
g-c-e > 5s/4i, 9s/6i 2 notes upwards, G note downwards
e-c-g > 8s/6i, 15s/9i E note downwards
c-g-e > 7s/5i, 16s/10i E note upwards
g-e-c > 9s/6i,17s/11i C note upwards, G note downwards

Let us consider presented in the table chords from 2 points of view
- greatest dissonances between third and even harmonics and
stability of missing fundamental (MF) (i.e. its clear articulation ).
Importance of dissonances is obvious. Importance of stability of MF
follows from the determined fact that brain includes an apparatus for
estimating missing fundamental which is tied with emotional
perception.
The pairs of chords with same bass notes would be compared as in
practice they determine the name of inversion.
For major chord c-e-g in root close position there is dissonance
between 4. harmonic of root C and 3. harmonic of E. MF of the chord is
2 octaves below root C.
For chord c-g-e there is dissonance between 8. harmonic of root C
and 3. harmonic of E. Missing fundamental of the chord is 2 octaves
below root note C as well.
For first inversion e-g-c there is dissonance between 2.
harmonic of C and 3. harmonic of E. MF of the chord is 3 octaves
below root note C, i.e. worse determined as by basic major chord, but
es may be improved through addition C note below chord notes. By it
melody note would be duplicated.
The chord e-c-g is considered as first inversion as well. It has
dissonance between 2. harmonic of C and 3. harmonic of E and MF 5
times below note E and hence 3 octaves below note C.
Second inversion g-c-e has dissonance between 4. harmonic of root C
and 3. harmonic of E. It has same MF as basic chord which is worth
determined thank to positions of notes C and E.
Second inversion g-e-c has dissonance between 2. harmonic of root C
and 3. harmonic of E. It determines MF somewhat worse as inversion g-c-
e thank to far position of note C.

The presented analysis permits to suppose that basic order c-e-g and
its most known inversions e-g-c and g-c-e have advantage in the
majority of cases.

Yuri Vilenkin
Hans Aberg
2012-01-30 09:31:11 UTC
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Post by Vilen
In last year November I tried to clear my questions about this matter
but the initiated discussion deviated in undesirable direction. I am
interesting why the handbooks, Internet sites , etc. consider only 3
orders from possible 6 although they all are used in practice.
And I recall you got the answer: close and open position.
Post by Vilen
In try
to understand the matter I formed the table below. The scale
intervals(i) and corresponding distances in semitones(s) from bass
note are indicated in it for major triad c-e-g and its possible
inversions.
c-e-g> 4s/3i, 7s/5i
e-g-c> 3s/3i, 8s/6i C note upwards, 2 notes downwards
g-c-e> 5s/4i, 9s/6i 2 notes upwards, G note downwards
These are close position: no tone of the same triad can be inserted.
Post by Vilen
e-c-g> 8s/6i, 15s/9i E note downwards
c-g-e> 7s/5i, 16s/10i E note upwards
g-e-c> 9s/6i,17s/11i C note upwards, G note downwards
Open position: a tone of the same triad can be inserted.

Hans
Vilen
2012-01-30 11:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Vilen
In last year November I tried to clear my questions about this matter
but the initiated discussion deviated in undesirable direction. I am
interesting why the handbooks, Internet sites , etc. consider only 3
orders from possible 6 although they all are used in practice.
And I recall you got the answer: close and open position.
Post by Vilen
In try
to understand the matter I  formed the table below. The scale
intervals(i) and corresponding distances in semitones(s) from bass
note are indicated in it for major triad c-e-g  and its possible
inversions.
c-e-g>  4s/3i, 7s/5i
e-g-c>  3s/3i, 8s/6i   C note upwards, 2 notes downwards
g-c-e>  5s/4i, 9s/6i   2 notes upwards, G note downwards
These are close position: no tone of the same triad can be inserted.
Post by Vilen
e-c-g>  8s/6i, 15s/9i  E note downwards
c-g-e>  7s/5i, 16s/10i  E note upwards
g-e-c>  9s/6i,17s/11i    C note upwards, G note downwards
Open position: a tone of the same triad can be inserted.
Hans
Thank. It is correct formal criterion: if one start octave leap from
extreme note of closed triad in direction of its other notes the
another closed triad will be the result.

Yuri
Hans Aberg
2012-01-30 13:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Vilen
In last year November I tried to clear my questions about this matter
but the initiated discussion deviated in undesirable direction. I am
interesting why the handbooks, Internet sites , etc. consider only 3
orders from possible 6 although they all are used in practice.
And I recall you got the answer: close and open position.
Post by Vilen
In try
to understand the matter I formed the table below. The scale
intervals(i) and corresponding distances in semitones(s) from bass
note are indicated in it for major triad c-e-g and its possible
inversions.
c-e-g> 4s/3i, 7s/5i
e-g-c> 3s/3i, 8s/6i C note upwards, 2 notes downwards
g-c-e> 5s/4i, 9s/6i 2 notes upwards, G note downwards
These are close position: no tone of the same triad can be inserted.
Post by Vilen
e-c-g> 8s/6i, 15s/9i E note downwards
c-g-e> 7s/5i, 16s/10i E note upwards
g-e-c> 9s/6i,17s/11i C note upwards, G note downwards
Open position: a tone of the same triad can be inserted.
Thank. It is correct formal criterion: if one start octave leap from
extreme note of closed triad in direction of its other notes the
another closed triad will be the result.
The successive inversions are produced by moving the lowest note up one
octave. This is also true for the 9th chord, where the lowest note will
be inserted between the top two, the 7th and the 9th.

Hans
LJS
2012-03-02 16:10:03 UTC
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I suppose your not understanding the answers may be one definition of undesirable. Your problem of not understanding might simply be a matter of context.
In general terms, hans gave you the answer. What you describe IS considered in all CPP theory. OPEN AND CLOSED VOICING is what you are not understanding. This is evidence that you do not understand basic 1st semester or entey level music theory.

If, however, you are talking about non tonal tone sets, you are trying to say that CPP theory does not explain nonfunctional tone sets and that is corrdect.

But, if that is what you mean, you must study non functional music and use an analysis tha suites that context.

At present, you are repeating the same thing expecting a different result and that is one definition of insanity.

LJS

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