Discussion:
Simple question on time signature using Cream's "White Room" as an example
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2.7182818284590...
2011-05-28 04:04:48 UTC
Permalink
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro. The chords for
the intro are simple, and they are as follows: Gm - F - Dm - C
and Gm - F - Dm - C - Am7 .

Q1: If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes. Is this true/
false? I would think that the song is definitely in 8th time (8 is
in the denominator of the time signature).
Q2: How do you figure that there are 5 quarter notes per measure?

There is something very fundamental that I'm not understanding with
time signatures.

I recognize, as a guitar player, that the *chorus* of this song has a
strange rhythm. It's slightly "off-beat" for me to play music in
strange rhythms like this. The chord progression here is:
[D] [D] [C] [C] [G/B] [G/B] [Bb] [C], and if you listen
closely, there seems to be *9* beats per measure. What do you think?
Nil
2011-05-28 04:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro. The chords
for the intro are simple, and they are as follows: Gm - F - Dm -
C and Gm - F - Dm - C - Am7 .
Q1: If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no
longer be in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes. Is this
true/ false?
It's up you, the composer or notator, to decide if it's a fast 5/4 or a
slow 5/8. At the recorded tempo, the basic pulse is clearly a quarter
note, and the passage is in 5/4
Post by 2.7182818284590...
I would think that the song is definitely in 8th
time (8 is in the denominator of the time signature).
What makes you think that?
Post by 2.7182818284590...
Q2: How do you figure that there are 5 quarter notes per measure?
It feels like quarter notes. A new measure clearly occurs after every 5
beats. Listen to the drum part - Ginger Baker hits his cymbals every 5
beats.
Post by 2.7182818284590...
I recognize, as a guitar player, that the *chorus* of this song
has a strange rhythm. It's slightly "off-beat" for me to play
music in strange rhythms like this. The chord progression here
is: [D] [D] [C] [C] [G/B] [G/B] [Bb] [C], and if you
listen closely, there seems to be *9* beats per measure. What do
you think?
No. It's in 4/4 all the way thorough that section. Tap along with it
and count, you'll see.
Les Cargill
2011-05-28 07:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro. The chords for
the intro are simple, and they are as follows: Gm - F - Dm - C
and Gm - F - Dm - C - Am7 .
Q1: If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes. Is this true/
false?
The easiest way is to double the tempo value. What a mess, though.
Post by 2.7182818284590...
I would think that the song is definitely in 8th time (8 is
in the denominator of the time signature).
Q2: How do you figure that there are 5 quarter notes per measure?
There just is. The one is when they change chords. If you count to five
between chords, it fits.

I don't remember how I learned to count, so I can't teach it here
in ASCII.
Post by 2.7182818284590...
There is something very fundamental that I'm not understanding with
time signatures.
I recognize, as a guitar player, that the *chorus* of this song has a
strange rhythm. It's slightly "off-beat" for me to play music in
[D] [D] [C] [C] [G/B] [G/B] [Bb] [C],
That's the verse. Or bridge. Or badge.

Has anybody seen that confounded bridge?
Post by 2.7182818284590...
and if you listen
closely, there seems to be *9* beats per measure. What do you think?
It's 4/4.

--
Les Cargill
LJS
2011-05-28 14:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro.  The chords for
the intro are simple, and they are as follows:  Gm - F - Dm - C
and Gm - F - Dm - C  - Am7 .
Q1:  If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes.  Is this true/
false?    I would think that the song is definitely in 8th time (8 is
in the denominator of the time signature).
If the tempo were doubled, they would still be quarter notes. If the
rhythms were played faster because of diminution, then they would be
8th notes.

The decision of 5/4 or 5/8 would be based upon the basic underlying
pulse and/or the whim of the composer. (just as some funky rhythms are
written in 16th notes when 8th notes in "alla breve" would be more
appropriate and accurate)
Post by 2.7182818284590...
Q2:  How do you figure that there are 5 quarter notes per measure?
The number of pulses is the proper term rather than "quarter notes"
here. There would be 5 pulses in a measure. With that thinking, you
would listen to the music and if the common denominator of the
recurring pulses of the melody and/or the harmony and/or any other
rhythmic activity going on at the same time repeats itself in groups
of 5, then the top number of the time signature would be 5. The basic
concept is that the first beat or pulse of each measure is stronger
and you are dividing the music into groups of strong recurring
patterns.

The bottom number only defines what note symbol is being used to
represent the basic pulse or beat of the music. 5/4 has five pulses
that are called quarter notes. 5/8 has five pulses that are called
eight notes. In a simple rhythmic score, they are interchangeable and
can not be known which is which unless you saw the written music. They
would be only two different ways of saying the same thing.

In some music, (not this example) you can have two concepts going on
at the same time. In a signature of 6/8 for example. You would think
that there would be 6 pulses in the music and there could be and
usually would be in slow 6/8 music. But in faster tempos, it is
usually two pulses in the measure coming on 1 and 4. Since we don't
have a numeric symbol for three eighth notes we use 6/8 out of
convention for what some composers (Bartok for example) that would use
the numeral 2 for the top number and the "dotted quarter note" symbol
for the bottom 'figure'. This is to show that it is different from a
measure of three pulses of a quarter note, written as 3/4. This
measure also has 6 eight notes, but the grouping is 2+2+2 instead of
3+3 in the 6/8 measure. Similarly, in changing meters you will
sometimes see the groupings notated as the top number to further make
clear the meter. i.e. 2+3 over 8 or 3+2 over 8 (or over 4 if it were
in 5/4) This is all an aside from your question only to serve as food
for thought that might help you to understand the nature of time
signatures (see below)
Post by 2.7182818284590...
There is something very fundamental that I'm not understanding with
time signatures.
It seems so. If you think of it like this it might help (and with the
example above):

The top number (or symbols) tells you how many beats in the measure
(or pulses in the group of notes)

The bottom number (or symbol) defines the pulse.

Tempo has nothing to do with it. At 100 beats per minute an 8th note
is the same length as a quarter note at 50 beats per minute. Tempo is
totally separate from Meter. Meter is defined by time signatures.
Tempo is defined in words or symbolically as a written note = a number
of beats per minute) i.e.

(symbol for quarter note) = 120 bpm

If you need additional information or explanation, just ask.

LJS
Post by 2.7182818284590...
I recognize, as a guitar player, that the *chorus* of this song has a
strange rhythm.  It's slightly "off-beat" for me to play music in
[D]  [D]  [C]  [C]  [G/B]  [G/B]  [Bb]  [C],  and if you listen
closely, there seems to be *9* beats per measure.  What do you think?
I think it has been covered by others.
Meat Plow
2011-05-28 23:18:48 UTC
Permalink
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that there
are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro. The chords for the intro
are simple, and they are as follows: Gm - F - Dm - C and Gm - F - Dm -
C - Am7 .
Q1: If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes. Is this true/ false?
I would think that the song is definitely in 8th time (8 is in the
denominator of the time signature). Q2: How do you figure that there
are 5 quarter notes per measure?
There is something very fundamental that I'm not understanding with time
signatures.
I recognize, as a guitar player, that the *chorus* of this song has a
strange rhythm. It's slightly "off-beat" for me to play music in
strange rhythms like this. The chord progression here is: [D] [D] [C]
[C] [G/B] [G/B] [Bb] [C], and if you listen closely, there seems
to be *9* beats per measure. What do you think?
It's an easy enough song to play. It was in our set list for decades. I'm
not really one for dwelling over the technical issues of the composition.
--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse
Tom K.
2011-05-28 23:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro.
How do you know it is in 5/4 - have you seen the music? My point is that
having 5 beats to the measure could be 5/4, 5/2, 5/8, 5/16, etc., according
to the whim of the composer, arranger or whoever has done the notation.
Post by 2.7182818284590...
Q1: If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes. Is this true/
false? I would think that the song is definitely in 8th time (8 is
in the denominator of the time signature).
No - you are confusing meter (5 quarter note beats per measure in this case)
with tempo which is the speed or duration of those beats. For example,
music notated in 5/4 with a metronome marking of quarter note = 60 means
that since each beat takes one second (60 beats per minute), then one
measure will have a duration of 5". If you double the speed, then the
quarter note = 120 (a duration of 1/2 second), so each measure would last
only 2 1/2 seconds. But the meter would still be 5/4.

While most folks figure that using small note values in a time signature
such as 4/8, 4/16 or 4/32 means the tempo is fast and long values like 4/2
or 4/1 (rare, but possible) means the tempo is slow, that's not necessarily
the case. Tempo is determined by metronome mark, someone counting the music
off, or some other method of establishing the speed of the beat - whatever
the note value.
Post by 2.7182818284590...
Q2: How do you figure that there are 5 quarter notes per measure?
That's what I asked you! If the given time signature is 5/4 (as you said),
then the upper figure tells you how many of the lower figure note values are
in a measure. If the time signature were 21/8, then there would be 21 eight
notes in each measure (hopefully you'll never encounter this one!).

Tom
JNugent
2011-05-29 09:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro. The chords for
the intro are simple, and they are as follows: Gm - F - Dm - C
and Gm - F - Dm - C - Am7 .
Q1: If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes. Is this true/
false?
It's false.

If you doubled the speed of Brubeck's "Take Five" (eg, by playing back a tape
of it at double speed, or a digital copy in such a way as to double speed
withouyt affecting pitch), it'd still be in 5/4 time.
David Eberhardt
2011-05-31 02:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
The intro for this song is in 5/4 time signature, which means that
there are 5 quarter notes per measure for the intro.  The chords for
the intro are simple, and they are as follows:  Gm - F - Dm - C
and Gm - F - Dm - C  - Am7 .
Q1:  If the song were *doubled* in speed, the notes would no longer be
in quarter notes, but they'd be in eight notes.  Is this true/
false?    I would think that the song is definitely in 8th time (8 is
in the denominator of the time signature).
Q2:  How do you figure that there are 5 quarter notes per measure?
There is something very fundamental that I'm not understanding with
time signatures.
I recognize, as a guitar player, that the *chorus* of this song has a
strange rhythm.  It's slightly "off-beat" for me to play music in
[D]  [D]  [C]  [C]  [G/B]  [G/B]  [Bb]  [C],  and if you listen
closely, there seems to be *9* beats per measure.  What do you think?
Those intro/turn parts are 5/4. I just watched a Netflix documentary
on Cream last night, and Ginger Baker claims it was his idea to make
that part 5/4. He was very specific that it was HIS idea (as
apparently, ALL the good ideas Cream ever had were). Jeez, what a
train-wreck THAT guy is. ;^)

Anyhoo- Just count 5 beats per chord, || Gm | F | Dm | C :|| and
don't let the drum-cadence throw you off (those drummers are tricky).

The rest is straight 4/4, with one beat for each chord you wrote in
brackets. I'll put it in measures here:
|| D D C C | G/B G/B Bb C :||

No idea where you're getting 9 from, unless there's a drum hit on an
8th note that's making you count extra. Again, ignore those drum
cadences, and tap your foot.

-(geetar)dave-----;;;
Nil
2011-05-31 05:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Eberhardt
Those intro/turn parts are 5/4. I just watched a Netflix
documentary on Cream last night, and Ginger Baker claims it was
his idea to make that part 5/4. He was very specific that it was
HIS idea (as apparently, ALL the good ideas Cream ever had were).
Jeez, what a train-wreck THAT guy is. ;^)
Anyhoo- Just count 5 beats per chord, || Gm | F | Dm | C :||
and don't let the drum-cadence throw you off (those drummers are
tricky).
|| D D C C | G/B G/B Bb C :||
No idea where you're getting 9 from, unless there's a drum hit on
an 8th note that's making you count extra. Again, ignore those
drum cadences, and tap your foot.
Good description, and accurate, but don't think we'll be hearing from
this guy again. He seems to be another hit-and-run poster, not
interested in discussion or acknowledging replies.

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