Discussion:
Supposition
(too old to reply)
Vilen
2011-10-13 07:41:55 UTC
Permalink
It is known that Rameau invented the notion of fundamental bass from
fact that notes' pitches of major triad correspond ratios 4:5:6 of
natural row. From here he came to conclusion that major triad is
natural and its positive features follows from this naturalness. The
minor triad became stumbling stone for his theory as it posses
approximately equal qualities but correspond ratios 10:12:15.
I often encountered the assertion that 1/10 of tonic pitch don't
correspond any note of music scale (see for example the site
http://jjensen.org/musicTheory.html ).Before I didn't prove this
assertion but: for minor tonic A4=440Hz 1/10 is 44Hz and 43,65Hz is
F1, i.e. 44 corresponds F1 with same accuracy as major third
correspond ratio 5/4. It may be anticipated as in these cases mistake
arises by embodiment of ratios 5:1 or 1:5. Clearly just for major
third the more exactness is desirable. So there is note of minor scale
which corresponds begin of harmonic row 1,2.3,...10,..12,...15 and
this note may be used to enhance the fundamental bass. Then what was
bad for Rameau and his followers? Apparently what notes in begin of
harmonic row and tonic note are different and this fact destroys the
mystic theory. In fact Rameau formulated only the useful for definite
time method of music composition, including chord classification and
chord progressions.
On the one hand contemporary scientific data indicate preferences of
ET music scale and expedience to use music instruments on the its
basis. On the other hand there is phenomenon of missing fundamental
which is apparently connected with harmonic row as sound on its basis
has period corresponding its begin. Therefore I came to supposition
that it is expedient to use instruments with ET scale for melody and
harmonic instruments for bass line. By the way, I ponder over this
subject after acquaintance with several articles about interaction of
fundamental bass contour and melody ( and perception of speech) .

Yuri Vilenkin
Hans Aberg
2011-10-13 16:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
It is known that Rameau invented the notion of fundamental bass from
fact that notes' pitches of major triad correspond ratios 4:5:6 of
natural row. From here he came to conclusion that major triad is
natural and its positive features follows from this naturalness. The
minor triad became stumbling stone for his theory as it posses
approximately equal qualities but correspond ratios 10:12:15.
I often encountered the assertion that 1/10 of tonic pitch don't
correspond any note of music scale (see for example the site
http://jjensen.org/musicTheory.html ).
Here he uses it as a factor when rewriting 1:6/5:3/2 = 10:12:15, or as
vectors f*(1, 6/5, 3/2) = (1/10)*f*(10, 12, 15). This is two ways to
write the same set of relative pitches.

Before I didn't prove this
Post by Vilen
assertion but: for minor tonic A4=440Hz 1/10 is 44Hz and 43,65Hz is
F1, i.e. 44 corresponds F1 with same accuracy as major third
correspond ratio 5/4.
So it would be the pitch 440/10 = 44 Hz, but it is actually not played,
so it does not matter what it is.

Hans
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-14 05:08:13 UTC
Permalink
While 5:1 is on the harmonic series, I find it does not work very well
az a parallel harmonic, and I've never seen it in complex harmony,
either. I've seen 5:2, 5:3, and 5:4 is frequent, but never 5:1. 11:1 is
more useful than 5:1. I used 11:1 in the background for:
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/COMMAND.HTM
Vilen
2011-10-14 15:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
So it would be the pitch 440/10 = 44 Hz, but it is actually not played,
so it does not matter what it is.
For example: in the J.Brahms work "In the Churchyard (C Minor)" there
is chord with notes A4 in melody and F1 in bass.

Yuri
Hans Aberg
2011-10-15 12:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
So it would be the pitch 440/10 = 44 Hz, but it is actually not played,
so it does not matter what it is.
For example: in the J.Brahms work "In the Churchyard (C Minor)" there
is chord with notes A4 in melody and F1 in bass.
You might try playing the interval of a couple of octaves plus a semitone.

Hans
Hans Aberg
2011-10-15 13:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
So it would be the pitch 440/10 = 44 Hz, but it is actually not played,
so it does not matter what it is.
For example: in the J.Brahms work "In the Churchyard (C Minor)" there
is chord with notes A4 in melody and F1 in bass.
You snipped the context: when using the notation 1:6/5:3/2 = 10:12:15,
it does not imply that there is a note 1/10 f being played. A composer
can of course add it, but this is another matter.

Hans
Vilen
2011-10-15 17:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Hans Aberg
So it would be the pitch 440/10 = 44 Hz, but it is actually not played,
so it does not matter what it is.
  For example: in the J.Brahms work "In the Churchyard (C Minor)" there
is chord with notes A4 in melody and F1 in bass.
You snipped the context: when using the notation 1:6/5:3/2 = 10:12:15,
it does not imply that there is a note 1/10 f being played. A composer
can of course add it, but this is another matter.
Hans
I wasn't sure that understood Your post from 13oct. correctly and
gave example of Brahms work to prove it.
The true question is existing of in common music scale fundamental
frequency of minor chord. I like to think that such existing may be
important only for aim to assert or even bring the sensation of
fundamental bass (missing fundamental, virtual pitch). I cite from
Wikipedia about sensation of missing fundamental:
"Research conducted at Heidelberg University, as described in the
January 2006 issue of the German audiophile magazine AUDIO, indicates
that the general population can be divided into those who perceive
missing fundamentals, and those who primarily hear overtones. The
magazine article states that the difference between the perceived
pitches can be up to 4 octaves." The interval F1-A4 is less.

Yuri Vilenkin
Hans Aberg
2011-10-15 19:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
So it would be the pitch 440/10 = 44 Hz, but it is actually not played,
so it does not matter what it is.
For example: in the J.Brahms work "In the Churchyard (C Minor)" there
is chord with notes A4 in melody and F1 in bass.
You snipped the context: when using the notation 1:6/5:3/2 = 10:12:15,
it does not imply that there is a note 1/10 f being played. A composer
can of course add it, but this is another matter.
I wasn't sure that understood Your post from 13oct.
I did not deal with your other ideas, only with the interpretation of
that notation above, which was used on the link you gave.
Post by Vilen
correctly and
gave example of Brahms work to prove it.
The true question is existing of in common music scale fundamental
frequency of minor chord. I like to think that such existing may be
important only for aim to assert or even bring the sensation of
fundamental bass (missing fundamental, virtual pitch). I cite from
"Research conducted at Heidelberg University, as described in the
January 2006 issue of the German audiophile magazine AUDIO, indicates
that the general population can be divided into those who perceive
missing fundamentals, and those who primarily hear overtones. The
magazine article states that the difference between the perceived
pitches can be up to 4 octaves." The interval F1-A4 is less.
I'm not sure what you are out for. One also hear difference tone,
produced in the cochlea, so they do not exist physically.

For a chord 10:12:15, there is there are difference tones 2, 3, and 5,
by just taking the differences. The lowest of these would be the
"acoustic bass".

If you do this computation for the inversions of the major chord, it is
always an octave shift of the root of the chord.

One noted that in a Italian basilica had very poor bass acoustics and a
reverb of 9 seconds. Under such circumstances, harmony would favor slow
movements in major, because of that acoustic root property.

It would not work with the minor chord.

Hans
Vilen
2011-10-16 12:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Aberg
For a chord 10:12:15, there is there are difference tones 2, 3, and 5,
by just taking the difference . The lowest of these would be the
"acoustic bass".
By taking the difference tones missing fundamental would correspond
tonic/4 for major triad and tonic/5 fir minor one.
As I know this assertion is questionable and now the hypothesis of
autocorrelation is advanced. In this case missing fundamental
corresponds the period of tonic/4 for major and tonic/10 for minor.
Post by Hans Aberg
One noted that in a Italian basilica had very poor bass acoustics and a
reverb of 9 seconds. Under such circumstances, harmony would favor slow
movements in major, because of that acoustic root property.
It would not work with the minor chord.
Thus autocorrelation hypothesis gives twice as much difference of
missing fundamental for major and minor better. Therefore it better
explains essential different influence of reverb, about which You
talk.
By the way it was interesting for me to familiarize myself with site
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/revtim.html#c3
about reverberation time.

Yuri Vilenkin
Hans Aberg
2011-10-16 15:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
For a chord 10:12:15, there is there are difference tones 2, 3, and 5,
by just taking the difference . The lowest of these would be the
"acoustic bass".
By taking the difference tones missing fundamental would correspond
tonic/4 for major triad and tonic/5 fir minor one.
Missing fundamental I think is only for a single note. But, indeed, it
will be marked by the difference tones of of the partials.

In other cases, one speaks about acoustic bass or root.
Post by Vilen
As I know this assertion is questionable and now the hypothesis of
autocorrelation is advanced. In this case missing fundamental
corresponds the period of tonic/4 for major and tonic/10 for minor.
The question is really if it can be heard. The acoustic bass has been
used to produce pipe organ pipes.
Post by Vilen
Post by Hans Aberg
One noted that in a Italian basilica had very poor bass acoustics and a
reverb of 9 seconds. Under such circumstances, harmony would favor slow
movements in major, because of that acoustic root property.
It would not work with the minor chord.
Thus autocorrelation hypothesis gives twice as much difference of
missing fundamental for major and minor better. Therefore it better
explains essential different influence of reverb, about which You
talk.
By the way it was interesting for me to familiarize myself with site
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/revtim.html#c3
about reverberation time.
It also depends on what type of music one wants to play. The longer
times, closing into 10 s, are suitable for slow movements in major. The
shorter times, close to 0 s, are suitable for gamelan orchestras, which
use tunings with built in beat rates.

Hans
WeReo_BoY
2011-10-17 03:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vilen
It is known that Rameau invented the notion of fundamental bass from
fact that notes' pitches of major triad correspond ratios 4:5:6 of
natural row. From here he came to conclusion that major triad is
natural and its positive features follows from this naturalness. The
minor triad became stumbling stone for his theory as it posses
approximately equal qualities but correspond ratios 10:12:15.
I often encountered the assertion that 1/10 of tonic pitch don't
correspond any note of music scale (see for example the site
http://jjensen.org/musicTheory.html ).Before I didn't prove this
assertion but: for minor tonic A4=440Hz 1/10 is 44Hz and 43,65Hz is
F1, i.e. 44 corresponds F1 with same accuracy as major third
correspond ratio 5/4. It may be anticipated as in these cases mistake
arises by embodiment of ratios 5:1 or 1:5. Clearly just for major
third the more exactness is desirable. So there is note of minor scale
which corresponds begin of harmonic row 1,2.3,...10,..12,...15 and
this note may be used to enhance the fundamental bass. Then what was
bad for Rameau and his followers? Apparently what notes in begin of
harmonic row and tonic note are different and this fact destroys the
mystic theory. In fact Rameau formulated only the useful for definite
time method of music composition, including chord classification and
chord progressions.
On the one hand contemporary scientific data indicate preferences of
ET music scale and expedience to use music instruments on the its
basis. On the other hand there is phenomenon of missing fundamental
which is apparently connected with harmonic row as sound on its basis
has period corresponding its begin. Therefore I came to supposition
that it is expedient to use instruments with ET scale for melody and
harmonic instruments for bass line. By the way, I ponder over this
subject after acquaintance with several articles about interaction of
fundamental bass contour and melody ( and perception of speech) .
Yuri Vilenkin
Yes, but the music is a crock of shit.

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