Meter issues

[j***@gmail.com]

I have difficulty keeping meter. I can easily get lost on the downbeat
during a dynamic agogic syncopation.

What I have determined is that my mine recalculates as the new
downbeat as I generally want to come in on the next downbeat relative
to the new meter I have created in my head.

Take an example where the 4th beat of some bar is stress as if it were
the downbeat and the next bar is relative bare(no real metrical
information). My mind immediately treats that 4th beat as the 1st beat
then I'll come in a beat too soon and this always feels right to me
throws me off a beat.

1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |
x x x X | - - - y | X

# = beat number

x = non-accented beat
X = accented beat
y = what I feel as the down beat.
- = relatively tacet or strange rhythms

Usually I can fix the problem by reinterpreting the bar as 5/4 but in
some cases I can't do that if the adjacent bars are already heavily
syncopated. In the above example, if the first bar uses some weird
rhythms and the - - - bar uses some drum fill strange rhythms. It
becomes much worse if the tacet like bar is rushed or dragged by any
bit as then I get completely lost. Once the downbeat does come I can
quickly recognize it without any problem but it's awkward and
difficult to enter into the bar properly. Coming in a beat off will be
somewhat of a show stopper.

I do not necessarily feel like this very quick reinterpretation is a
negative but since it causes problems with some songs it is something
I need to fix. When I tap my foot and there is a solid meter I have no
issues but when there are syncopation my foot wants to follow them
instead of the meter. If I try to keep my foot tapping with the meter
then it can cause the syncopation I'm playing to be off. When I'm not
tapping or worrying about I generally have no issues with the
syncopation and the feel rather natural.

In the example given I feel it as a true meter change. I might few it
as 3/4 5/4 4/4 instead of 4/4 4/4 4/4. But since we've been in 4/4 the
whole time I tend to forget it's 5/4 and treat the thing as 3/4 4/4
4/4 as it just doesn't feel right to call that one bar 5/4. Not sure
why in the specific case I'm thinking of. In the example I'm thinking
of the meter is further confounded by the drums which as if it were
shifted by an 8th note.

I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?

The issue I have is almost always due to a break in flow of the
instrument I'm playing. If it is continuous notes I almost never have
a problem or if the break is less than a beat. When it's a bar or two
long and tacet except for other instruments that play weird
syncopations I almost always get lost. Sometimes I can make little
mental notes such as "Wait an extra 8th note" but these do not solve
the underlying problem.

The upside is that I have seen people with a really good sense of 4/4
be thrown a little by certain syncopations that I have no problem
with. Unfortunately they tend to not have nearly as many issues as I
have.

[Tom K.]

wrote in message news:dde3d300-1bf8-4248-9c9e-***@g41g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...

I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When working with a rhythm section in a traditional jazz or rock genre, I
find paying close attention to the bass usually helps. But as someone
increasingly afflicted with CRS, I'd also suggest keeping an internal count
(1-2-3-4) going when the problem arises.

Now if I could remember why I walked into this room...

Tom

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by j***@gmail.com
I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When working with a rhythm section in a traditional jazz or rock genre, I
find paying close attention to the bass usually helps.  But as someone
increasingly afflicted with CRS, I'd also suggest keeping an internal count
(1-2-3-4) going when the problem arises.
Now if I could remember why I walked into this room...
Tom

CRS?

I usually do not like counting because I can't "feel" the music. I
count a lot more than I realize though and find myself counting things
when they are confusing. Usually breaks in my own playing though get
me lost because I usually don't count up to that point so sometimes
I'm not sure where the down beat is if it was obscured. So if
everything is going fine and feeling right I won't count because I
feel it takes away from my playing and if some strange syncopations
pop up quickly and are long enough I'll completely lose where the
downbeat is. I guess I need to start counting from the start and
eventually it will be more natural and I'll not have to do it
consciously as much.

[Tom K.]

Post by Tom K.
wrote in
I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When working with a rhythm section in a traditional jazz or rock genre, I
find paying close attention to the bass usually helps. But as someone
increasingly afflicted with CRS, I'd also suggest keeping an internal count
(1-2-3-4) going when the problem arises.
Now if I could remember why I walked into this room...
Tom

CRS?
------------------------------------
Can't Remember Stuff (or S--t)
------------------------------------
I usually do not like counting because I can't "feel" the music. I
count a lot more than I realize though and find myself counting things
when they are confusing. Usually breaks in my own playing though get
me lost because I usually don't count up to that point so sometimes
I'm not sure where the down beat is if it was obscured. So if
everything is going fine and feeling right I won't count because I
feel it takes away from my playing and if some strange syncopations
pop up quickly and are long enough I'll completely lose where the
downbeat is. I guess I need to start counting from the start and
eventually it will be more natural and I'll not have to do it
consciously as much.
------------------------------------
You need to revert to counting when you can't "feel"the rhythm - but
practicing that way will ultimately allow you internalize the rhythm.
Ideally, you should be need to count only those sections which give you a
problem.

Think about the common 3 against 2 rhythm. If we assume (in 4/4 meter) a
triplet of three quarter notes are to be played in the space of two beats,
the the accurate way to learn the rhythm is to sub-divide each beat into 3
triplet eighth notes. Then each note of the quarter note triplet will have
a duration of 2 triplet eighths, but the beat will be unchanged (three 8th
triplets for each beat). You may already have this internalized; if so, try
working on more complex patterns such as 4 against 3 or 5 against three by
appropriately sub-dividing the beat until you can feel it without counting.

Tom

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by j***@gmail.com
I have difficulty keeping meter. I can easily get lost on the downbeat
during a dynamic agogic syncopation.
What I have determined is that my mine recalculates as the new
downbeat as I generally want to come in on the next downbeat relative
to the new meter I have created in my head.
Take an example where the 4th beat of some bar is stress as if it were
the downbeat and the next bar is relative bare(no real metrical
information). My mind immediately treats that 4th beat as the 1st beat
then I'll come in a beat too soon and this always feels right to me
throws me off a beat.
1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |
x x x X | - - - y | X
# = beat number
x = non-accented beat
X = accented beat
y = what I feel as the down beat.
- = relatively tacet or strange rhythms
Usually I can fix the problem by reinterpreting the bar as 5/4 but in
some cases I can't do that if the adjacent bars are already heavily
syncopated. In the above example, if the first bar uses some weird
rhythms and the - - - bar uses some drum fill strange rhythms. It
becomes much worse if the tacet like bar is rushed or dragged by any
bit as then I get completely lost. Once the downbeat does come I can
quickly recognize it without any problem but it's awkward and
difficult to enter into the bar properly. Coming in a beat off will be
somewhat of a show stopper.
I do not necessarily feel like this very quick reinterpretation is a
negative but since it causes problems with some songs it is something
I need to fix. When I tap my foot and there is a solid meter I have no
issues but when there are syncopation my foot wants to follow them
instead of the meter. If I try to keep my foot tapping with the meter
then it can cause the syncopation I'm playing to be off. When I'm not
tapping or worrying about I generally have no issues with the
syncopation and the feel rather natural.
In the example given I feel it as a true meter change. I might few it
as 3/4 5/4 4/4 instead of 4/4 4/4 4/4. But since we've been in 4/4 the
whole time I tend to forget it's 5/4 and treat the thing as 3/4 4/4
4/4 as it just doesn't feel right to call that one bar 5/4. Not sure
why in the specific case I'm thinking of. In the example I'm thinking
of the meter is further confounded by the drums which as if it were
shifted by an 8th note.
I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?
The issue I have is almost always due to a break in flow of the
instrument I'm playing. If it is continuous notes I almost never have
a problem or if the break is less than a beat. When it's a bar or two
long and tacet except for other instruments that play weird
syncopations I almost always get lost. Sometimes I can make little
mental notes such as "Wait an extra 8th note" but these do not solve
the underlying problem.
The upside is that I have seen people with a really good sense of 4/4
be thrown a little by certain syncopations that I have no problem
with. Unfortunately they tend to not have nearly as many issues as I
have.

Your quite intelligent, based on the way you're breaking down your
problem into it's various components, and you're quite aware of many of
the aspects to your problem, so you'll probably figure this out for
yourself one way or another.
Based on what you've said above it looks to me like you may never have
trained yourself to count while you're playing.
You should be able to do this out loud with the metrically relevant
syllables (eg. 1 & 2 &, 1 & ah 2 & a, 1 e & a 2 e & a, etc.) while
you're playing, but eventually you won't need to do it out loud.
For many novices this can tricky, like trying to learn how to juggle,
because your mind is divided between the tasks of playing and the task
of counting.
But once you learn how to do it it becomes second nature and you'll find
that you count through everything even if you're not aware that you are
doing so.

The trick is to count every downbeat in a measure (whether or not you
have any notes being attacked on those beats) as well as every
subdivision where you do have an attack.
Eg. For a rhythm in 4/4 consisting of a dotted half note followed by two
1/8 notes (and then rests in the next measure), you would count:
1 2 3 4 & |1 2 3 4
By counting each of the downbeats, whether or not you have an attack on
those beats, you keep yourself oriented in the time.

As far as your rhythm above is concerned, I'll bet that you can
transcend your problem simply by learning to say the word "one" right on
the downbeat of the 2nd measure.

Most folks develop this skill by reading lots and lots of music and
counting while doing so to ensure accuracy and comprehension of the
nature of the rhythm.
Working on syncopation exercises is important because if you're always
playing simple rhythms - when you have to play a syncopation it will
throw you off.
If you're a guitar player (or not), I highly recommend William Leavitt's
book - Melodic Rhythms For Guitar.
A drum book or two, just for rhythm reading with no pitch content, is
also a good idea.
Loius Bellson's - Reading Text In 4/4 is highly recommended as is his
other book - Reading Text In Odd Times.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by j***@gmail.com
I have difficulty keeping meter. I can easily get lost on the downbeat
during a dynamic agogic syncopation.
What I have determined is that my mine recalculates as the new
downbeat as I generally want to come in on the next downbeat relative
to the new meter I have created in my head.
Take an example where the 4th beat of some bar is stress as if it were
the downbeat and the next bar is relative bare(no real metrical
information). My mind immediately treats that 4th beat as the 1st beat
then I'll come in a beat too soon and this always feels right to me
throws me off a beat.
1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |
x x x X | - - - y | X
# = beat number
x = non-accented beat
X = accented beat
y = what I feel as the down beat.
- = relatively tacet or strange rhythms
Usually I can fix the problem by reinterpreting the bar as 5/4 but in
some cases I can't do that if the adjacent bars are already heavily
syncopated. In the above example, if the first bar uses some weird
rhythms and the - - - bar uses some drum fill strange rhythms. It
becomes much worse if the tacet like bar is rushed or dragged by any
bit as then I get completely lost. Once the downbeat does come I can
quickly recognize it without any problem but it's awkward and
difficult to enter into the bar properly. Coming in a beat off will be
somewhat of a show stopper.
I do not necessarily feel like this very quick reinterpretation is a
negative but since it causes problems with some songs it is something
I need to fix. When I tap my foot and there is a solid meter I have no
issues but when there are syncopation my foot wants to follow them
instead of the meter. If I try to keep my foot tapping with the meter
then it can cause the syncopation I'm playing to be off. When I'm not
tapping or worrying about I generally have no issues with the
syncopation and the feel rather natural.
In the example given I feel it as a true meter change. I might few it
as 3/4 5/4 4/4 instead of 4/4 4/4 4/4. But since we've been in 4/4 the
whole time I tend to forget it's 5/4 and treat the thing as 3/4 4/4
4/4 as it just doesn't feel right to call that one bar 5/4. Not sure
why in the specific case I'm thinking of. In the example I'm thinking
of the meter is further confounded by the drums which as if it were
shifted by an 8th note.
I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?
The issue I have is almost always due to a break in flow of the
instrument I'm playing. If it is continuous notes I almost never have
a problem or if the break is less than a beat. When it's a bar or two
long and tacet except for other instruments that play weird
syncopations I almost always get lost. Sometimes I can make little
mental notes such as "Wait an extra 8th note" but these do not solve
the underlying problem.
The upside is that I have seen people with a really good sense of 4/4
be thrown a little by certain syncopations that I have no problem
with. Unfortunately they tend to not have nearly as many issues as I
have.

Your quite intelligent, based on the way you're breaking down your
problem into it's various components, and you're quite aware of many of
the aspects to your problem, so you'll probably figure this out for
yourself one way or another.
Based on what you've said above it looks to me like you may never have
trained yourself to count while you're playing.
You should be able to do this out loud with the metrically relevant
syllables (eg. 1 & 2 &, 1 & ah 2 & a, 1 e & a 2 e & a, etc.) while
you're playing, but eventually you won't need to do it out loud.
For many novices this can tricky, like trying to learn how to juggle,
because your mind is divided between the tasks of playing and the task
of counting.
But once you learn how to do it it becomes second nature and you'll find
that you count through everything even if you're not aware that you are
doing so.
The trick is to count every downbeat in a measure (whether or not you
have any notes being attacked on those beats) as well as every
subdivision where you do have an attack.
Eg. For a rhythm in 4/4 consisting of a dotted half note followed by two
1 2 3 4 & |1 2 3 4
By counting each of the downbeats, whether or not you have an attack on
those beats, you keep yourself oriented in the time.
As far as your rhythm above is concerned, I'll bet that you can
transcend your problem simply by learning to say the word "one" right on
the downbeat of the 2nd measure.
Most folks develop this skill by reading lots and lots of music and
counting while doing so to ensure accuracy and comprehension of the
nature of the rhythm.
Working on syncopation exercises is important because if you're always
playing simple rhythms - when you have to play a syncopation it will
throw you off.
If you're a guitar player (or not), I highly recommend William Leavitt's
book - Melodic Rhythms For Guitar.
A drum book or two, just for rhythm reading with no pitch content, is
also a good idea.
Loius Bellson's - Reading Text In 4/4 is highly recommended as is his
other book - Reading Text In Odd Times.

What I have been trying to do over several months is count music while
listening, which is generally easy for me. But as soon as I pick up
the guitar and try to play syncopations I can't count in time any
more ;/ I always want to count on the accents. I have no problem
counting and I have found that in many cases I do it automatically
when trying to know when to come up but I suppose I'm not a good multi-
tasker and I generally lose time when I count if the rhythm does not
reinforce the feel.

The specific song I'm thinking of, or the one that lead me to post, as
there are many, is China Grove. I'm not sure if you are that familiar
with the song but here is a link to it:

I can play the main intro riff with no problem and even the syncopated
after the first 2 bars is no problem and feels quite natural. I don't
have to count anything and don't have issues playing the first 4
phrases except the break right before the first verse(and similar
breaks usually give me grief). I can play each section of the song
with no issues and it feels right except a very minor spots here and
there(like in the bridge on the F#maj chord that leads into the 2nd
half of the bridge(same progression)). As long as there are not too
much syncopations going on I can usually get it most of the time but I
generally have to pay a good amount of attention.

The basic rhythm goes like the following

| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |

where - either means a rest, tie, or just placeholder

When I try and count this while playing I count it like

| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |
| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - - 2 - - 3 - | 4 - ...

but I feel it, as best I can tell, as

| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - - 2 - - | 1 - 2 - ...

I have no issues counting when not playing as I just count. Sometimes
I might revert back to counting the accents but usually I can count in
a steady pulse. Hopefully the notation makes sense.

From what you have said it seems it's just practice and getting used
to counting in a non-natural way, or at least, from a different
perspective. I guess you could say I'm "accent counting" when I really
need to be "metrical pulse" counting. I've tried to start hearing that
last chord(the A chord) as a 4 instead of a 1 and it's starting to
make sense but I lose a bit of timing when I do it or at least still
feels a bit rushed when the verse starts.

I guess it's time to practice this counting religiously because it's
always been a issue for me. How can I practice these when I almost
always count with the accents while playing it and don't have any
problems when I don't play it(but listen)? It can feel very awkward
when I say & and hear a big syncopated chord on it cause my brain
automatically assumes it must have happened on a beat and wants me to
say the closest number that I used last. In the china grove example on
the dotted quarter notes(3rd bar above) I end up drawing on the true
beats by an 8th note.


I'll check out those books. I'm pretty sure a few months of dedicated
practice will solve most of my problems but maybe you can add some
"encouraging advice" before I begin my journey ;)

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by j***@gmail.com

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by j***@gmail.com
I have difficulty keeping meter. I can easily get lost on the downbeat
during a dynamic agogic syncopation.
What I have determined is that my mine recalculates as the new
downbeat as I generally want to come in on the next downbeat relative
to the new meter I have created in my head.
Take an example where the 4th beat of some bar is stress as if it were
the downbeat and the next bar is relative bare(no real metrical
information). My mind immediately treats that 4th beat as the 1st beat
then I'll come in a beat too soon and this always feels right to me
throws me off a beat.
1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |
x x x X | - - - y | X
# = beat number
x = non-accented beat
X = accented beat
y = what I feel as the down beat.
- = relatively tacet or strange rhythms
Usually I can fix the problem by reinterpreting the bar as 5/4 but in
some cases I can't do that if the adjacent bars are already heavily
syncopated. In the above example, if the first bar uses some weird
rhythms and the - - - bar uses some drum fill strange rhythms. It
becomes much worse if the tacet like bar is rushed or dragged by any
bit as then I get completely lost. Once the downbeat does come I can
quickly recognize it without any problem but it's awkward and
difficult to enter into the bar properly. Coming in a beat off will be
somewhat of a show stopper.
I do not necessarily feel like this very quick reinterpretation is a
negative but since it causes problems with some songs it is something
I need to fix. When I tap my foot and there is a solid meter I have no
issues but when there are syncopation my foot wants to follow them
instead of the meter. If I try to keep my foot tapping with the meter
then it can cause the syncopation I'm playing to be off. When I'm not
tapping or worrying about I generally have no issues with the
syncopation and the feel rather natural.
In the example given I feel it as a true meter change. I might few it
as 3/4 5/4 4/4 instead of 4/4 4/4 4/4. But since we've been in 4/4 the
whole time I tend to forget it's 5/4 and treat the thing as 3/4 4/4
4/4 as it just doesn't feel right to call that one bar 5/4. Not sure
why in the specific case I'm thinking of. In the example I'm thinking
of the meter is further confounded by the drums which as if it were
shifted by an 8th note.
I'm worried it is an issue with memory where I can easily forget the
meter. I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing as I'm not tied/
stuck to 4/4 but I need to have a bit more balance between the two.
Any ideas or ways to practice getting this meter memory effect?
The issue I have is almost always due to a break in flow of the
instrument I'm playing. If it is continuous notes I almost never have
a problem or if the break is less than a beat. When it's a bar or two
long and tacet except for other instruments that play weird
syncopations I almost always get lost. Sometimes I can make little
mental notes such as "Wait an extra 8th note" but these do not solve
the underlying problem.
The upside is that I have seen people with a really good sense of 4/4
be thrown a little by certain syncopations that I have no problem
with. Unfortunately they tend to not have nearly as many issues as I
have.

Your quite intelligent, based on the way you're breaking down your
problem into it's various components, and you're quite aware of many of
the aspects to your problem, so you'll probably figure this out for
yourself one way or another.
Based on what you've said above it looks to me like you may never have
trained yourself to count while you're playing.
You should be able to do this out loud with the metrically relevant
syllables (eg. 1& 2&, 1& ah 2& a, 1 e& a 2 e& a, etc.) while
you're playing, but eventually you won't need to do it out loud.
For many novices this can tricky, like trying to learn how to juggle,
because your mind is divided between the tasks of playing and the task
of counting.
But once you learn how to do it it becomes second nature and you'll find
that you count through everything even if you're not aware that you are
doing so.
The trick is to count every downbeat in a measure (whether or not you
have any notes being attacked on those beats) as well as every
subdivision where you do have an attack.
Eg. For a rhythm in 4/4 consisting of a dotted half note followed by two
1 2 3 4& |1 2 3 4
By counting each of the downbeats, whether or not you have an attack on
those beats, you keep yourself oriented in the time.
As far as your rhythm above is concerned, I'll bet that you can
transcend your problem simply by learning to say the word "one" right on
the downbeat of the 2nd measure.
Most folks develop this skill by reading lots and lots of music and
counting while doing so to ensure accuracy and comprehension of the
nature of the rhythm.
Working on syncopation exercises is important because if you're always
playing simple rhythms - when you have to play a syncopation it will
throw you off.
If you're a guitar player (or not), I highly recommend William Leavitt's
book - Melodic Rhythms For Guitar.
A drum book or two, just for rhythm reading with no pitch content, is
also a good idea.
Loius Bellson's - Reading Text In 4/4 is highly recommended as is his
other book - Reading Text In Odd Times.

What I have been trying to do over several months is count music while
listening, which is generally easy for me. But as soon as I pick up
the guitar and try to play syncopations I can't count in time any
more ;/ I always want to count on the accents. I have no problem
counting and I have found that in many cases I do it automatically
when trying to know when to come up but I suppose I'm not a good multi-
tasker and I generally lose time when I count if the rhythm does not
reinforce the feel.
The specific song I'm thinking of, or the one that lead me to post, as
there are many, is China Grove. I'm not sure if you are that familiar
with the song but here is a link to it: http://youtu.be/udSHItTjWyQ
I can play the main intro riff with no problem and even the syncopated
after the first 2 bars is no problem and feels quite natural. I don't
have to count anything and don't have issues playing the first 4
phrases except the break right before the first verse(and similar
breaks usually give me grief). I can play each section of the song
with no issues and it feels right except a very minor spots here and
there(like in the bridge on the F#maj chord that leads into the 2nd
half of the bridge(same progression)). As long as there are not too
much syncopations going on I can usually get it most of the time but I
generally have to pay a good amount of attention.
The basic rhythm goes like the following
| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |
where - either means a rest, tie, or just placeholder
When I try and count this while playing I count it like
| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |
| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - - 2 - - 3 - | 4 - ...

You're only counting the downbeats and are not counting the subdivisions
where the attacks are.

| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |
| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 & 3 - 4 - | 1 - ...
is what you should be counting.

Post by j***@gmail.com
but I feel it, as best I can tell, as
| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - - 2 - - | 1 - 2 - ...
I have no issues counting when not playing as I just count. Sometimes
I might revert back to counting the accents but usually I can count in
a steady pulse. Hopefully the notation makes sense.
From what you have said it seems it's just practice and getting used
to counting in a non-natural way, or at least, from a different
perspective. I guess you could say I'm "accent counting" when I really
need to be "metrical pulse" counting. I've tried to start hearing that
last chord(the A chord) as a 4 instead of a 1 and it's starting to
make sense but I lose a bit of timing when I do it or at least still
feels a bit rushed when the verse starts.
I guess it's time to practice this counting religiously because it's
always been a issue for me. How can I practice these when I almost
always count with the accents while playing it and don't have any
problems when I don't play it(but listen)? It can feel very awkward
when I say& and hear a big syncopated chord on it cause my brain
automatically assumes it must have happened on a beat and wants me to
say the closest number that I used last. In the china grove example on
the dotted quarter notes(3rd bar above) I end up drawing on the true
beats by an 8th note.
I'll check out those books. I'm pretty sure a few months of dedicated
practice will solve most of my problems but maybe you can add some
"encouraging advice" before I begin my journey ;)

[Hans Aberg]

Post by j***@gmail.com
What I have been trying to do over several months is count music while
listening, which is generally easy for me. But as soon as I pick up
the guitar and try to play syncopations I can't count in time any
more ;/ I always want to count on the accents. I have no problem
counting and I have found that in many cases I do it automatically
when trying to know when to come up but I suppose I'm not a good multi-
tasker and I generally lose time when I count if the rhythm does not
reinforce the feel.
The specific song I'm thinking of, or the one that lead me to post, as
there are many, is China Grove. I'm not sure if you are that familiar
with the song but here is a link to it: http://youtu.be/udSHItTjWyQ
I can play the main intro riff with no problem and even the syncopated
after the first 2 bars is no problem and feels quite natural. I don't
have to count anything and don't have issues playing the first 4
phrases except the break right before the first verse(and similar
breaks usually give me grief). I can play each section of the song
with no issues and it feels right except a very minor spots here and
there(like in the bridge on the F#maj chord that leads into the 2nd
half of the bridge(same progression)). As long as there are not too
much syncopations going on I can usually get it most of the time but I
generally have to pay a good amount of attention.
The basic rhythm goes like the following
| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |

As Joey pointed out, the beat counting should always be 1 2 3 4:
| x - x - - - - - | x - x - - - - - | x - - x - - x - |
| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 & 3 - 4 - | ...
Joey puts in an & "and" here.

An alternative to treat a syncope is to break it up into two notes, and
then when that has been learned thoroughly, tie them together. If you
play an instrument that allows to form the envelope of the full tied
note, some of the metric accent may shine through on the second tied note.

Using attack syllables ta-ka used on woodwind instruments, which you
might sing, this becomes
| ta- ta- - - - - | ta- ta- - - - - | ta- - taka- x - |
| 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 & 3 - 4 - | ...

when comfortable, remove the "k", so it becomes ta-a, where the last "a"
may have slight metric accent. On a piano, for example, it will just be
a long taa, but the second "a" may still have metric accent in mind.

Hans