Discussion:
questions about chords in pentatonic scales
(too old to reply)
s***@yahoo.com
2011-08-04 01:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.

(In case you doubt, here are the details:
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)

The chords indicated above the clef are E7 A7 B7.

BUT
each of the chords includes at least one note not contained in the
given scale. If we were to add those notes (G# C# D# F#) to the
pentatonic scale described above, then we would have another scale
altogether.

SO
How are chords determined, generally, for pentatonic scales?

Chords with accidentals occur all the time (for example, a C+ chord in
a C major piece). But in my experience, at least ONE chord used in
the piece can usually be constructed from the given scale.

I need to explore a wider selection of music, obviously. Help me get
started.

Any understanding you can provide will be appreciated.

Thank you.

Ted Shoemaker
Joey Goldstein
2011-08-04 16:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Hello,
I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)
The chords indicated above the clef are E7 A7 B7.
BUT
each of the chords includes at least one note not contained in the
given scale. If we were to add those notes (G# C# D# F#) to the
pentatonic scale described above, then we would have another scale
altogether.
SO
How are chords determined, generally, for pentatonic scales?
Chords with accidentals occur all the time (for example, a C+ chord in
a C major piece). But in my experience, at least ONE chord used in
the piece can usually be constructed from the given scale.
I need to explore a wider selection of music, obviously. Help me get
started.
Any understanding you can provide will be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ted Shoemaker
Harmonic accompaniment to pentatonic melodies can consist of *any*
chords the composer happens to want to hear.
The harmonic resources of the pentatonic scale itself are rather limited.
Within the pent scale referenced above, the only triads that exist are
Em and Gmaj. A progression that used only those two chords would sound
static and motionless.

The diatonic scale has a much more varied harmonic palette available,
with 7 different possible triads.
Composers of music in major keys typically emphasize these particular
chords in particular ways that have the effect of bringing out the major
key tonality.
Likewise, composers of music in minor keys typically emphasize these
particular chords in particular ways that have the effect of bringing
out the minor key tonality.
Pentaonic scales, on the other hand, are not typically used to generate
harmonic progression. Although they may be used as raw material for
chord voicings, they are not used to generate progressions of chords
(except possibly in very simple 2 chord vamps).

Your example involves the use of an E minor pentatonic scale over a
chord progression that is in the key of E major - with a bluesy colour
attached to the key by the use of the D nat on the I (E) chord and the G
nat on the IV (A) chord.
Within a major key, scale degrees b3 b7 and b5 are considered to be "the
blue notes" which imply a blues tonality.
The D and the G are both contained in the E natural minor scale (E F# G
A B C D E) and their use within an E major tonality is sometimes
considered to be a borrowing technique from the parallel minor key.
(I.e. In E major we often borrow sounds from E minor.)
The b5 can't really be looked at from that perspective though.

The E min pent scale (aka the G major pentatonic scale) also contains
the D and the G.
It is standard fare in the blues, rock and pop music styles to use
melodies from a min pent scale (built on the tonic of the key) over a
major keyed chord progression.
With the addition of the b5, the scale is called the blues scale:
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7 | 1 etc.
E G A Bb B D |E etc.
This is a 6-note, or hexatonic, scale.

E G A B D (1 b3 4 5 b7) rotates to G A B D E (1 2 3 5 6), which is
called the G major pentatonic scale.
G maj pent has a very strong suggestion of G being the home note, or
tonic, and of a Gmaj triad associated with that note.
It is used quite frequently on music within the key of G major.
Note that the G major pentatonic scale (5-notes) is a subset of the G
major scale (7-notes).
Sometimes, folks will add a b3 to to the maj pent scale to make it a bit
more "bluesy" sounding.
Eg. G A Bb B D E |G etc.
If we rotate this scale to start on E, we'll have the E blues scale:
E G A Bb B D |E etc.

So the E blues texture kind of involves a jamming together of E major, E
minor, and G minor sounds.

This is also demonstrative of something that is very common in
contemporary popular music that you would think should be easy to
explain with simple theory, but isn't. Even though this sound is so
common that every little kid with an electric guitar knows it inside and
out, it is actually something that is quite tricky to explain theoretically.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
DonMack
2011-08-04 18:21:52 UTC
Permalink
To expand a little on what Joey said, a scale is a sort of conglomerate of
all the notes used. It does not tell you how the notes are used.

Most advanced players tend to think in terms of chords rather than scales
with scales being only the glue that keeps them on the right track.

In blues, the I IV and V of a major key are played as dominants BUT the
melodies tend to chose notes from the minor scale built on the same root.
This is the style of blues. To make it work though it is not enough simply
to play the scale but you have to play in the blues idiom.

To contrast, country music tends to use the same progressions in the same
way(in many cases at least) yet has a totally different style. How can this
be? Specially when the scales are almost identical?

In C blues the Cm pentatonic is used with the added blues notes:

C Eb F Gb G Bb C

In country the Cmaj pentatonic is used

C D E G A Bb C

But in both cases the combined scale, which is C mixolydian with the added
b3rd and b5th are used. The scales are almost identical but the emphasis on
the intervals are much more different.

The best way to make this clear is to simply realize that the chromatic
scale covers ALL possibilities neglecting microtonal variations.What this
means is some notes become more important that others.

But before we oversimplify it you have to realize that the emphasis changes
depending on which chord is being played. A good player will think
differently over an E7 chord than an A7 chord in some key. Over the E7 chord
the D will be very important in blues and country but over the A7 chord the
D will be deemphasized by most players. Why is does this happen? Because
most musicians think in terms of chords/harmonies rather than scales.

A scale is just a group of notes that you can draw from and be reasonably
assured they will work more or less. A scale does not tell you which notes
are the best notes to play at any instant. Sometimes the best note to play,
if there is such a note, is not even in the scale. Other times the best note
to play is not even a chord time.


In your example you have a E blues(note it is not E major but E blues!!!
They are different). The Emin pentatonic gets all the main notes to get that
blues sound. But playing random notes from that scale won't work. Even
playing the right notes with the wrong feel won't work. You have to play in
the proper idiom.

An analogy is speaking a foreign language. It is not enough to know the
vocabulary. If you want to be completely fluent in it you have to also have
the mannerisms, vocal inflections, etc. Without these people will recognize
something is different, usually for the worse.

As far as chord naming goes, it can be quite difficult to explain quickly.
But for the most part the major scale is used as a template and the major
chord is the basis. Tonal music is built off 3rds(basically skipping 2 or 3
notes on a piano or 1 note on the white keys).

We somehow we've determine the "root" of a chord is C then if we write the C
major scale in 3rds we have

C E G B D F A

This is the template for our chord. It is a Cmaj13 chord. When we add or
subtract notes the chord changes. The 13 comes from the highest interval in
the chord using that pattern above. 13 = 6 = A.

Suppose we turn the B into a Bb. We now have a dominant type of chord and we
would label it as C13.

If we leave off the last 3 notes we have a C7 = C E G Bb (....)

If we add notes outside the scale it becomes more trickly. If we play a
C#/Db along with the C7 chord we would label it as a C7b9. With experience
you will recognize this exactly as the notes C E G Bb Db(not necessarily in
that order).

For your E blues you start with an E7 chord. When you play a G note from the
E blues scale over it the you end up with both a major and minor 3rd in the
harmony. Since we have no way to specify both a major and minor 3rd we
actually treat the G as a F##. F## in the key of E is an augmented 2nd(since
F# is the major 2nd).

So the E7 chord with a G being played on top of it would be written as E7#9.
This just means we have an E7 chord with a G in it somewhere. It sounds
bluesy because it exactly is. It contains both the major 3rd and the minor
3rd(or augmented 2nd).

If all this is very confusing you need to start with the very basics of
learning the theory of intervals and scales. Chord naming depends a great
deal on knowing your intervals. After all, a chord symbol is just trying to
tell us the intervals used. E7 tells me the exact notes I am suppose to be
playing. E7 = E G# B D. E7add9 should be obvious. It's an E7 chord with the
9th added. It's also known as E9(the add is redundant in this case). E7sus =
E7 with an A added. We could have written it as E11(no 9th) or even
E11(which contains the 9th but doesn't matter if it does or doesn't that
much) or E7add11.

Chord symbols is part science and part art. When you spend some type
learning the basic theory then get your fingers dirty with experience it all
starts to make sense.

In any case your original problem seems to be just realizing it is a blues
progression. That alone tells you a lot. When something is the blues it
almost always is the 12-bar blues which is a fixed progression of I7 - - -
IV7 - I7 - V7 IV7 I7 V7. The melody almost always comes from the minor
scale of the tonic.

If your having trouble following just look up 12-bar blues online and
memorize the progression(there are some slight differences). Memorize it,
practice it every day. Learn some blues licks and practice them. Forget
learning the theory until you have some foundation to work off.

If can be very difficult to learn something without context. Remember two
things: Theory followed practice AND most of the great musicians did not
know any theory(or rather they had an subconscious understanding of it).
Hans Aberg
2011-08-05 10:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)
The chords indicated above the clef are E7 A7 B7.
BUT
each of the chords includes at least one note not contained in the
given scale. If we were to add those notes (G# C# D# F#) to the
pentatonic scale described above, then we would have another scale
altogether.
SO
How are chords determined, generally, for pentatonic scales?
The slendro scale, which is a pentatonic and used in gamelan music,
triads get out of tune. When fit into a diatonic scale, the minor
seconds (E-F and B-C') get very narrow, 20-60 cents.

So it is the composer that chooses a particular musical style (as has
been pointed out in in other posts).

Hans
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-18 17:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Hello,
I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)
From that, I get:
E = 800
G = 960
A = 1080
B = 1215
D = 1458

The problem with a tune like that is that even though the major seconds
are very close in equal temperament, minor thirds in equal temperament
could be 19:16, and that is probably not what you want. Those naturals,
az raw Hertz, are well within range of hearing. You might want to scale
them down into voice range, though, say by dividing them all by 10.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
The chords indicated above the clef are E7 A7 B7.
BUT
each of the chords includes at least one note not contained in the
given scale. If we were to add those notes (G# C# D# F#) to the
pentatonic scale described above, then we would have another scale
altogether.
Get the timing you want on the tune before you consider harmony. I find
that just intonation haz tight demands on timing once you are in the
right key (in just intonation, there are wrong keys). The first thing
available to artistic license in performance iz timing. Xavier Cougat
changed Beethoven's timing. So did I in an unrecorded variation on Ode
To Joy (which came out of hiz niinth symphony). The second thing
available to artistic license iz harmony.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
SO
How are chords determined, generally, for pentatonic scales?
It may be pentatonic, and it iz not evenly on a pentatonic scale. I am
getting the impression that these might be parallel chords. Parallel
harmony usually does not work for a whole tune. When I started out in
music, I loved parallel fifths, and I did a recording or two without
much variation from parallel fourths. I could probably get away with
three notes of parallel harmony before it would sound like an ending.

It's possible your work was done in a just intonation where the same
chord in different keys actually sounds subtly different. For example,
those numbers would be different if a just intonation had many minor
whole tones in it. The one I've been using recently does.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Chords with accidentals occur all the time (for example, a C+ chord in
a C major piece). But in my experience, at least ONE chord used in
the piece can usually be constructed from the given scale.
Sounds like you already hav some ideas on what usually works.
I am not a traditional harmonist.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I need to explore a wider selection of music, obviously. Help me get
started.
Any understanding you can provide will be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ted Shoemaker
_______
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/
Tom K.
2011-10-18 19:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Hello,
I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)
From that, I get:
E = 800
G = 960
A = 1080
B = 1215
D = 1458
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With a standard A=440, 800Hz is a very out of tune G, not an E.

Using A440 and 12Tet:
E = 330
G = 392
A = 440
B = 494
D = 587

Tom
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-19 10:42:16 UTC
Permalink
A difference iz between off key and out of tune. One means that you hav
hit wrong notes. The other means that your notes are not in 12-TET. For
a tribe of Tanzania: 4:5:6:7:8 for an octave iz a scale that does not
map to 12-TET. It iz off key. It iz not out of tune.
LJS
2011-10-21 23:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Hello,
I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)
E =  800
G =  960
A = 1080
B = 1215
D = 1458
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With a standard A=440, 800Hz is a very out of tune G, not an E.
E =  330
G =  392
A =  440
B =  494
D =  587
Tom
Hi Tom,
In my reader, you are listed just as always with a reply button as
well as a reply to author. But I am seeing posts that only have the
reply to author button.

Did something change? or have you noticed the same thing?
Hans, and Mack and Joey for example have only the reply to author
button but yours and BumaskiL have both.
Does anyone know what I am talking about and why it is that way now
and not before?

Thanks.

Oh, one question about all this ratio talk about the pentatonic
scale.

How can anyone really tell what various cultures used as a reference
for their pitch when singing pentatonic melodies?

It seems to me that it is possible and probably more likely that there
are differences of practically each culture and probably even within
various regions, towns and even families or possibly even individually
as to how to sing these scales.

Since one can pretty much generalize that except for equal temperament
musical interpretations, most of the pentatonic music was of the folk
genre except maybe for some Church music. Church music would have been
written down in most cases but folk music was generally passed down
voice to ear from the elders to the younger people of the area and who
knows how much variance there would have been from one setting to the
other.

Even in more recent times, in the early days of fixed pitch
keyboards, there seems to have been variations in the tunings of the
scales. Some performers carried their own tuning hammers and tuned the
instruments to their liking.

The point being, for me in a discussion like this, is that any and all
of the ratios may or may not have been used by either this person or
another. SO...

I can see some relevance of taking the common scale tunings and their
pentatonic tones in the tonic key, but beyond that, what is the
expected result of working out these various tunings of a sub set
(pentatonic scale) of the scale "du jour" when we don't know what
notes were actually sung by the people that were passing these scales
down from one person to the other.

In any case, it is good to see some discussions about any musical
subject again. Glad to have you and the other older timers around to
see what we can argue about!

LJS
Tom K.
2011-10-22 17:58:50 UTC
Permalink
"LJS" wrote in message news:facff440-faa2-4909-b249-***@hv4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...


Hi Tom,
In my reader, you are listed just as always with a reply button as
well as a reply to author. But I am seeing posts that only have the
reply to author button.

Did something change? or have you noticed the same thing?
Hans, and Mack and Joey for example have only the reply to author
button but yours and BumaskiL have both.
Does anyone know what I am talking about and why it is that way now
and not before?

Thanks.
LJS

I access UseNet through Giganews & my email program so I'm afraid I don't
know what you are referring to.

Sorry I can't be of help.

Tom
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-25 15:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by LJS
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Hello,
I was playing (okay, struggling to play) a song this morning which was
in a pentatonic scale.
The only notes written are E G A B D -- all naturals, no sharps or
flats.
The first and last note are both E.)
E = 800
G = 960
A = 1080
B = 1215
D = 1458
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With a standard A=440, 800Hz is a very out of tune G, not an E.
E = 330
G = 392
A = 440
B = 494
D = 587
Tom
Hi Tom,
In my reader, you are listed just as always with a reply button as
well as a reply to author. But I am seeing posts that only have the
reply to author button.
Did something change? or have you noticed the same thing?
Hans, and Mack and Joey for example have only the reply to author
button but yours and BumaskiL have both.
Does anyone know what I am talking about and why it is that way now
and not before?
For utter reluctance to return to groups.Google.com, I am only guessing.
Are Hans', Mack's and Joey's articles more than thirty days old? That is
about when Google terminates a thread.
Post by LJS
Thanks.
Oh, one question about all this ratio talk about the pentatonic
scale.
How can anyone really tell what various cultures used as a reference
for their pitch when singing pentatonic melodies?
The reference pitch does not matter.
Changing a reference pitch is like changing a key.
Music is about ratios, not absolutes, like reference pitches.
It is hard for me to understand how someone like LJS could spend years
here without learning that much about music.

In my scores 4,5,4,2,3 is practically the same az 8,10,8,4,6; same tune,
different key; much az we hav different piles from LJS.
Post by LJS
It seems to me that it is possible and probably more likely that there
are differences of practically each culture and probably even within
various regions, towns and even families or possibly even individually
as to how to sing these scales.
No. A perfect fifth and a perfect fourth come out nearly the same way on
any scale. I won't say the same about a septimal minor third, because
those simply were not distinguished from minor thirds until about
whenever Huygens-Fokker decided to write "all musical intervals".
Post by LJS
Since one can pretty much generalize that except for equal temperament
musical interpretations, most of the pentatonic music was of the folk
genre except maybe for some Church music. Church music would have been
written down in most cases but folk music was generally passed down
voice to ear from the elders to the younger people of the area and who
knows how much variance there would have been from one setting to the
other.
This variance does not happen. Three quartets can form a twelve member
chorus from different states and provinces, once they are singing in the
same key, and usually they are in the first place, due to pitch pipes.
Barbershop training goes from mouth to ear, just az you describe. Some
of them pull out the reference on a sheet -- once in a while, and bang
it out on a keyboard. It never works az well az a-Capella, which iz the
only place where you learn the blue notes. There is probably only one
blue note that will fit in a tune.
Post by LJS
Even in more recent times, in the early days of fixed pitch
keyboards, there seems to have been variations in the tunings of the
scales. Some performers carried their own tuning hammers and tuned the
instruments to their liking.
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory. Keyboards with memory did not become affordable until about
1990, about fifteen years after Moog synthesized an orchestra. If you
want to spend an hour talking a keyboardist into your minor thirds, then
you might get access to a pipe organ. I doubt it.

(snip)
Post by LJS
I can see some relevance of taking the common scale tunings and their
pentatonic tones in the tonic key, but beyond that, what is the
expected result of working out these various tunings of a sub set
(pentatonic scale) of the scale "du jour" when we don't know what
notes were actually sung by the people that were passing these scales
down from one person to the other.
If justly-tuned ratios, based upon historical usage or someone's
experience and understanding of harmony, do not work for a particular
song, then the riddle is something like "What ratios work better?". It
might be that a particular five-note tune demands a septimal ratio or an
obscure one among the five-prime-limit musical ratios. I doubt it, and
it is possible. For all of the pentatonic tunes I've actually written,
though, maybe they all work on raw circle-of-fifths Pythagorean.

Pythagorean tuning comes up with 27:16 for 5:3 (a major sixth), for
instance. While 5:3 works better by itself, I recently found a place
where 27:16 was much easier to write, simply because it did not disturb
notes coming after it.

(snip)
Alain Naigeon
2011-10-25 16:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory.
Did you ever attend a choral concert ?
--
Français *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
Alain Naigeon - ***@free.fr - Oberhoffen/Moder, France
http://fr.youtube.com/user/AlainNaigeon




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LJS
2011-10-29 20:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Naigeon
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory.
Did you ever attend a choral concert ?
Good to hear from you Alain. That comment seems to be right on track
and applies not only to forks, but to the variations of the pure
intervals of the a cappela groups as well.

LJS
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-30 08:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by LJS
Post by Alain Naigeon
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory.
Did you ever attend a choral concert ?
Good to hear from you Alain. That comment seems to be right on track
and applies not only to forks, but to the variations of the pure
intervals of the a cappela groups as well.
LJS
WHAT variations, you fraud?
*
http://tinyurl.com/Pohzer*
LJS
2011-10-31 16:29:10 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 30, 3:23 am, Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by LJS
Post by Alain Naigeon
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory.
Did you ever attend a choral concert ?
Good to hear from you Alain. That comment seems to be right on track
and applies not only to forks, but to the variations of the pure
intervals of the a cappela groups as well.
LJS
WHAT variations, you fraud?
*http://tinyurl.com/Pohzer*
well, as the experienced choral director you proport to be, you should
notice that some acapella choirs automatically adjust their major
chords to the pure tones of the harmonic series. and some stick to the
tempered scale and there are some that never can quite hear the
difference and are somewhere in between. If you really have directed
many more choirs than I ever did (how many exactly is that BumaskiL?
You have stats on me and what I do and have done? lol) you would know
that and thus you would know what variations in the pure intervals I
am talking about. But since you don't, is it another contextural
problem where you make up something that you wish I said or are you
just not quite what you would like people to believe you are?

LJS

Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-30 08:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Naigeon
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory.
Did you ever attend a choral concert ?
I've only seen directors use pitch pipes. Nobody uses them for blue
notes. They are not necessary, because people hav memory.
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-30 09:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Naigeon
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory.
Did you ever attend a choral concert ?
Most of the time, when it said "for a-Capella" on the score, she used a
keyboard to direct us regarding an introductory chord. She played each
note of the chord, going up, in series, rather than in concert. I will
be expected to remember, rather than voice, that introductory note,
until she gives a visual cue. Another of my directors haz used a pitch
pipe. When she did that, she only played the chord's key.

Az far az I know, blue notes are not on forks, and yet, in
double-checking, I see that some tuning fork companies offer to forge
forks of any pitch. It would be relatively inconvenient compared to an
iPod. People could pair up to do some of my works, for instance. That is
put one earphone into one person's ear, and the other earphone into
another person's ear, then sing in unison with my piece. Such people
would hear harmony from each other.

I am probably not the only one in the world to write harmony in stereo
separation.
It haz been feasible since the days of 8-track.
_______
http://tinyurl.com/Pohzer : Someone who claims he went to school with a
J. S. Bach contemporary who haz been dead for at least one hundred and
fifty years.
LJS
2011-10-29 20:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by LJS
Did something change? or have you noticed the same thing?
Hans, and Mack and Joey for example have only the reply to author
button but yours and BumaskiL have both.
Does anyone know what I am talking about and why it is that way now
and not before?
For utter reluctance to return to groups.Google.com, I am only guessing.
Are Hans', Mack's and Joey's articles more than thirty days old? That is
about when Google terminates a thread.> Thanks.
Thanks for the thought, but the dates don't fit that parameter.
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by LJS
Oh, one question about all this ratio talk about the pentatonic
scale.
How can anyone really tell what various cultures used as a reference
for their pitch when singing pentatonic melodies?
The reference pitch does not matter.
Changing a reference pitch is like changing a key.
Music is about ratios, not absolutes, like reference pitches.
It is hard for me to understand how someone like LJS could spend years
here without learning that much about music.
And, since you want to snip, I don't understand how you can change the
context so much. My comments have NOTHING to do with reference pitch.
If I didn't know better, I would say that this was a Straw Man
response!! But I will just mark it up as reading comprehension and a
desire to be critical just for the sake of it.
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
In my scores 4,5,4,2,3 is practically the same az 8,10,8,4,6; same tune,
different key; much az we hav different piles from LJS.> It seems to me that it is possible and probably more likely that there
Post by LJS
are differences of practically each culture and probably even within
various regions, towns and even families or possibly even individually
as to how to sing these scales.
No. A perfect fifth and a perfect fourth come out nearly the same way on
any scale. I won't say the same about a septimal minor third, because
those simply were not distinguished from minor thirds until about
whenever Huygens-Fokker decided to write "all musical intervals".> Since one can pretty much generalize that except for equal temperament
Post by LJS
musical interpretations, most of the pentatonic music was of the folk
genre except maybe for some Church music. Church music would have been
written down in most cases but folk music was generally passed down
voice to ear from the elders to the younger people of the area and who
knows how much variance there would have been from one setting to the
other.
This variance does not happen. Three quartets can form a twelve member
chorus from different states and provinces, once they are singing in the
same key, and usually they are in the first place, due to pitch pipes.
Barbershop training goes from mouth to ear, just az you describe. Some
of them pull out the reference on a sheet -- once in a while, and bang
it out on a keyboard. It never works az well az a-Capella, which iz the
only place where you learn the blue notes. There is probably only one
blue note that will fit in a tune.> Even in more recent times, in the early days of fixed pitch
Post by LJS
keyboards, there seems to have been variations in the tunings of the
scales. Some performers carried their own tuning hammers and tuned the
instruments to their liking.
Your lack of being able to read posts with reference to any context
except the narrow one you see is amazing! Or you just can't speculate
on things that you have not personally observed.

Barbershop quartets are not related at all to the voice to ear
learning of ethnic groups singing folk music down the ages and passing
from one to another. Number 1, It is unlike that they carried a pitch
pipe in the mountains or in the jungle, it is more likely that they
used their ear, memory or had their own personal pitch instrument that
gave them their reference, although I doubt this was the case. Could
they have had this type of tool? Possible but again it misses my point
entirely.
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
It is called a tuning *fork*. If you want to tune in a blue-note
harmony, say 7:4 or 9:7, then you might be hard pressed to find forks
that you did not forge. Forks went out of style when keyboards developed
memory. Keyboards with memory did not become affordable until about
1990, about fifteen years after Moog synthesized an orchestra. If you
want to spend an hour talking a keyboardist into your minor thirds, then
you might get access to a pipe organ. I doubt it.
And this has reference to anything that I said in what manner?
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
(snip)> I can see some relevance of taking the common scale tunings and their
Post by LJS
pentatonic tones in the tonic key, but beyond that, what is the
expected result of working out these various tunings of a sub set
(pentatonic scale) of the scale "du jour" when we don't know what
notes were actually sung by the people that were passing these scales
down  from one person to the other.
If justly-tuned ratios, based upon historical usage or someone's
experience and understanding of harmony, do not work for a particular
song, then the riddle is something like "What ratios work better?". It
might be that a particular five-note tune demands a septimal ratio or an
obscure one among the five-prime-limit musical ratios. I doubt it, and
it is possible. For all of the pentatonic tunes I've actually written,
though, maybe they all work on raw circle-of-fifths Pythagorean.
You are telling me that the Berbers, the African tribes used the
rations of Pythagoras? Please explain how they used the ratios as well
as where they got the information of the ratios and then again, how
exactly did the American Indians get this information. Sorry, the only
thing that the folk music of the world has in common is that the songs
are sung by individuals and then imitated by groups and passed along
by ear. They used their ear and "voice to ear " relay of information
from generation to generation and from area to area if they traveled.
Or are you suggesting that like the Barbershop quartets COULD do, they
carried the tradition on their iPod or other forms of recordings?
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Pythagorean tuning comes up with 27:16 for 5:3 (a major sixth), for
instance. While 5:3 works better by itself, I recently found a place
where 27:16 was much easier to write, simply because it did not disturb
notes coming after it.
(snip)
While you again bring up "snip"py comments, you should maybe think
less about snippy comments and try to run your ideas through the
various levels of Bloom's Taxonomy! You might open you eyes and ears
to points of view and truths that you don't seem to even realize
exist.

LJS
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-18 19:30:05 UTC
Permalink
My last answer: E = 800, G = 960, A = 1080, B = 1215, D = 1458
Iz quite a bit higher than what I get from adjusting:
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Sound/Just_Intonation.htm
into the key of E.
It haz a minor third between A and G, and another between B and A.
It haz a major second between G and E, and another between D and B.

In relation to the tonic, those numbers seem out to lunch, though.
These would probably sound better:
E = 30
G = 36; E*6/5
A = 40; E*4/3
B = 45; E*3/2
D = 54; E*9/5
Tom K.
2011-10-18 22:57:22 UTC
Permalink
"Bohgosity BumaskiL" wrote in message news:***@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca...

My last answer: E = 800, G = 960, A = 1080, B = 1215, D = 1458
Iz quite a bit higher than what I get from adjusting:
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Sound/Just_Intonation.htm
into the key of E.
It haz a minor third between A and G, and another between B and A.
It haz a major second between G and E, and another between D and B.

In relation to the tonic, those numbers seem out to lunch, though.
These would probably sound better:
E = 30
G = 36; E*6/5
A = 40; E*4/3
B = 45; E*3/2
D = 54; E*9/5

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30Hz is not E - it is between a rather low Bb and B. The other pitches are
off accordingly.

Tom
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-19 00:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
My last answer: E = 800, G = 960, A = 1080, B = 1215, D = 1458
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Sound/Just_Intonation.htm
into the key of E.
It haz a minor third between A and G, and another between B and A.
It haz a major second between G and E, and another between D and B.
In relation to the tonic, those numbers seem out to lunch, though.
E = 30
G = 36; E*6/5
A = 40; E*4/3
B = 45; E*3/2
D = 54; E*9/5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30Hz is not E - it is between a rather low Bb and B. The other
pitches are off accordingly.
Tom
It does not matter. 4,5,4,2,3 is an octave below 8,10,8,4,6. You would
perceive them as the same tune in a different key. 12,15,12,6,9 is again
the same tune, only it is an octave and a fifth above my first description.

If, however, you really want your tonic to be a 12-TET E:
basis = 440 / 2 ^ (17/12) / 30

Then, multiply all of those numbers by basis.
E=basis * 30
G=basis * 36
A=basis * 40
B=basis * 45
D=basis * 54
For lower octaves, add a multiple of twelve to seventeen.
For higher octaves, multiply 440 by that power of two in brackets.

164.813778456435
197.776534147722
219.75170460858
247.2206676846525
296.6648012215829
Tom K.
2011-10-19 01:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
My last answer: E = 800, G = 960, A = 1080, B = 1215, D = 1458
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Sound/Just_Intonation.htm
into the key of E.
It haz a minor third between A and G, and another between B and A.
It haz a major second between G and E, and another between D and B.
In relation to the tonic, those numbers seem out to lunch, though.
E = 30
G = 36; E*6/5
A = 40; E*4/3
B = 45; E*3/2
D = 54; E*9/5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30Hz is not E - it is between a rather low Bb and B. The other
pitches are off accordingly.
Tom
It does not matter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It does if you plan to interact with other musicians.

Tom
Bohgosity BumaskiL
2011-10-19 07:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
Post by Bohgosity BumaskiL
My last answer: E = 800, G = 960, A = 1080, B = 1215, D = 1458
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Sound/Just_Intonation.htm
into the key of E.
It haz a minor third between A and G, and another between B and A.
It haz a major second between G and E, and another between D and B.
In relation to the tonic, those numbers seem out to lunch, though.
E = 30
G = 36; E*6/5
A = 40; E*4/3
B = 45; E*3/2
D = 54; E*9/5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30Hz is not E - it is between a rather low Bb and B. The other
pitches are off accordingly.
Tom
It does not matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It does if you plan to interact with other musicians.
Tom
In this case, it does not matter what key this tune ends up being in,
because there is no way to tune it perfectly _and_ keep more than one
note on 12-TET. The only reason I ever bother tuning tonics on my tracks
to 12-TET, is because there are instruments like Trombones, Violins,
fret-less Guitars, and synthesizers. For them, it is not necessary, and
maybe someone appreciates familiar ground.

Maybe you haven't heard a stereo minor third.
This iz 12-TET: 1.1892071
This iz the real thing: 1.2
Which one haz a beat?
Which one iz closer to being 19:16 than 6:5?
_______
Your web site is far out, so far out that I cannot see it.
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