A question about keys and key signatures

[Barry Gold]

And, I suppose, also about modes.

Does the key of a work depend exclusively on the key signature? That
is, if it has one sharp, is it automatically either G-major or E-minor?

I'm asking because I'm typesetting a song whose key signature is pretty
clearly one flat (D minor), but the last note is a G and it _sounds_
like the tonic.

So, if I were labeling this classical style (e.g., Piano Sonata #14 in
C# minor), would I say it's in D minor (the key signature) or G minor
(the tonic according to my ear)? Should I say it's in D minor Lydian mode?

If you want to hear it, try

[Alain Naigeon]

Post by Barry Gold
And, I suppose, also about modes.
Does the key of a work depend exclusively on the key signature?

No.
First reason : as you seem to mention in the next lines, the essential
point is how the music sounds (cadential formulas).
Second reason : a piece often sounds in a different key after some time
and, if it's not for a long time, it would be cumbersome to change the
key signature every 3 or 4 bars.
This said, current today practice is to write the key signature which

Post by Barry Gold
if it has one sharp, is it automatically either G-major or E-minor?

That is, the reverse is true : if it sounds G major or E minor, it's
quite natural, today, to put one sharp in the key signature.

Post by Barry Gold
I'm asking because I'm typesetting a song whose key signature is pretty
clearly one flat (D minor), but the last note is a G and it _sounds_ like
the tonic.

I might be wrong, but it's probably a rather old piece. It was a current
practice to omit this second flat for a piece in G minor, for instance,
and personnally I find this practice interesting, because the sixth step,
in minor mode, is changing quite often : sometimes a semitone above
the dominant, sometimes a tone above, thus you hardly make the text
lighter by putting the flat in the key signature.

Post by Barry Gold
So, if I were labeling this classical style (e.g., Piano Sonata #14 in C#
minor), would I say it's in D minor (the key signature) or G minor (the
tonic according to my ear)?

I'd say your ear is the master !

To be fair : I'm not a professional musician, but I'm sure I haven't
written too stupid things ;-)

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by Barry Gold
And, I suppose, also about modes.
Does the key of a work depend exclusively on the key signature?

It's the other way around.
The key signature depends on the tonal centre of the piece.

Post by Barry Gold
That
is, if it has one sharp, is it automatically either G-major or E-minor?

Most of the time yes, especially with music that is clearly in a
traditionally defined major or minor key.
Keys are one type of a tonal centre, but so are modes as used in modern
pop music and jazz.
Composers have the leeway to decide on using a key signature based on
the 'tonic' of a mode or on the parent major scale of that mode.
E.g. Miles Davis' tune, So What, is in D dorian and can be correctly
written in 1 flat (D minor) - because the tonic chord of the piece is a
minor chord - or no sharps or flats (C major) - because the tune uses no
sharps or flats.
The choice is actually made according to how lazy the writer is with
regards to accidentals.
E.g. Writing So What in 1 flat will require him to use natural signs on
all the Bs.
Writing it in C is less work.
I prefer the former notation myself because I see D dorian as a type of
minor tonal centre.
Likewise, if I were notating apiece in A mixolydian I'd use 3 sharps and
a bunch of natural signs on the Gs because I see A mixolydian as being a
type of major tonal centre but it would also be correct to write it in 2
sharps.

Post by Barry Gold
I'm asking because I'm typesetting a song whose key signature is pretty
clearly one flat (D minor), but the last note is a G and it _sounds_
like the tonic.

If that's true then the tonality is probably G dorian and you could
write it in G minor (2 flats) or F major (1 flat).
The former may involve a few more natural signs on the E naturals.

Post by Barry Gold
So, if I were labeling this classical style (e.g., Piano Sonata #14 in
C# minor), would I say it's in D minor (the key signature) or G minor
(the tonic according to my ear)? Should I say it's in D minor Lydian mode?

By "D minor Lydian mode" do you mean: D E F G# A Bb C#?
If so, then where do those G#s occur?
Scales named as some sort of "lydian" variant will involve a #4 scale
degree, and unless otherwise indicated in the scale name a maj 3rd and a
maj 7th.
Scales named as some sort of a minor scale variant will involve scale
degree b3.
Since you have not called it "D minor lydian b7 mode" your scale name
indicates a maj 7th scale degree.
So I think you're confusing a number of things here.

If you meant: D E F G A Bb C# then that's just the D harmonic minor scale.
A piece that's has a tonic D minor chord (i.e. Dm is the tonal centre)
and that makes use of C#s as a leading tone will be written in 1 flat
and the C#s will be indicated with accidentals. (see below).
If you want to name the same pitch collection as having G as its tonic,
i.e. G A Bb C# D E F, then there is no common scale name for it but "G
dorian #4" would probably be well understood by most folks.
If Gm is truly the tonal centre of a piece involving that scale then a
key signature of 1 flat (and any C#s will be indicated with accidentals)
or 2 flats (and any E naturals or C#s will need accidentals).
If the entire piece uses that scale and no C naturals ever occur then
you might use an exotic key signature with 1 flat (Bb) and 1 sharp (C#).
I believe that composers like Bela Bartok occasionally used exotic key
sigs like that, but they're pretty rare in my experience.

Post by Barry Gold
If you want to hear it, try http://youtu.be/EfF_u0FpI3Y

I listened to the beginning of this and the end of it and it's in F# minor.
The chords of the main section are F#m (Im), Bm (IVm) and C#7 (V7).
So its key signature would be 3 sharps, and when the E sharps of the C#7
chord occur you'll need to notate that with accidentals.
The C#7 chord is derived from the F# harmonic minor scale but there is
not normally a key signature that uses F#, C#, G# and E#.
In minor keys, scale degree 7 is sometimes a min 7th above the tonic and
sometimes its a maj 7th above the tonic.
The key signature for minor keys normally does not reflect the maj 7th.
(See my comment above re Bartok)
Unless there's some obvious key changes that last for a long duration in
the middle of the piece, 3 sharps should apply to the entire tune.
If your piece is supposed to sound a 1/2 step higher than this recording
then it's in G minor, 2 flats.

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Barry Gold
And, I suppose, also about modes.
Does the key of a work depend exclusively on the key signature? That
is, if it has one sharp, is it automatically either G-major or E-minor?

The key signature is just a notational convenience, historically, over
time more rigidly tied to the minor and major scales.

Post by Barry Gold
I'm asking because I'm typesetting a song whose key signature is pretty
clearly one flat (D minor), but the last note is a G and it _sounds_
like the tonic.
So, if I were labeling this classical style (e.g., Piano Sonata #14 in
C# minor), would I say it's in D minor (the key signature) or G minor
(the tonic according to my ear)? Should I say it's in D minor Lydian mode?
If you want to hear it, try http://youtu.be/EfF_u0FpI3Y

G dorian would suffice, but if you think the key signature with a single
Bb might confuse, you might write out the name. Or you could use the G
minor key signature and use naturals for the e's, or some other key
signature you find convenient.

[J.B. Wood]

Post by Hans Aberg

Post by Barry Gold
So, if I were labeling this classical style (e.g., Piano Sonata #14 in
C# minor), would I say it's in D minor (the key signature) or G minor
(the tonic according to my ear)? Should I say it's in D minor Lydian mode?
If you want to hear it, try http://youtu.be/EfF_u0FpI3Y

G dorian would suffice, but if you think the key signature with a single
Bb might confuse, you might write out the name. Or you could use the G
minor key signature and use naturals for the e's, or some other key
signature you find convenient.

Hello, and jazz usage aside for the moment, symphonic music compositions
by 18 and 19th c. masters are specified as either major (e.g. "in A
major" or simply "in A") or in some relative minor key. The key
signature establishes the various scale degrees and the chordal
structures built on them. For sheet music when major or minor is
unspecified one has to examine the overall "mood" of the piece and
whether major or minor tonic chords are used more often. At the end of
the day it's often just a matter of one's perception. Sincerely,

[Hans Aberg]

Post by J.B. Wood

Post by Hans Aberg

Post by Barry Gold
So, if I were labeling this classical style (e.g., Piano Sonata #14 in
C# minor), would I say it's in D minor (the key signature) or G minor
(the tonic according to my ear)? Should I say it's in D minor Lydian mode?
If you want to hear it, try http://youtu.be/EfF_u0FpI3Y

G dorian would suffice, but if you think the key signature with a single
Bb might confuse, you might write out the name. Or you could use the G
minor key signature and use naturals for the e's, or some other key
signature you find convenient.

Hello, and jazz usage aside for the moment, symphonic music compositions
by 18 and 19th c. masters are specified as either major (e.g. "in A
major" or simply "in A") or in some relative minor key. The key
signature establishes the various scale degrees and the chordal
structures built on them. For sheet music when major or minor is
unspecified one has to examine the overall "mood" of the piece and
whether major or minor tonic chords are used more often. At the end of
the day it's often just a matter of one's perception. Sincerely,

It is the key, not the key signature, that establishes those things, as
there examples where the latter differs from the former. I do not recall
the example, but say a piece in D major might be written with the key
signature of G major, putting in accidentals as needed in the body.
Engravers may change that, so one has to go back to the original.

[J.B. Wood]

Post by Hans Aberg
It is the key, not the key signature, that establishes those things, as
there examples where the latter differs from the former. I do not recall
the example, but say a piece in D major might be written with the key
signature of G major, putting in accidentals as needed in the body.
Engravers may change that, so one has to go back to the original.

Hello, and while an argument can be made for that it generally isn't
done for an entire work unless the composer intends to modulate to other
keys during certain passages. And in those instances of course the
required number of accidentals are used as appropriate. Sincerely,

[Hans Aberg]

Post by J.B. Wood

Post by Hans Aberg
It is the key, not the key signature, that establishes those things, as
there examples where the latter differs from the former. I do not recall
the example, but say a piece in D major might be written with the key
signature of G major, putting in accidentals as needed in the body.
Engravers may change that, so one has to go back to the original.

Hello, and while an argument can be made for that it generally isn't
done for an entire work unless the composer intends to modulate to other
keys during certain passages. And in those instances of course the
required number of accidentals are used as appropriate. Sincerely,

The case I had mind was in a different key than the written key
signature, not merely temporarily changing. Also, one usually does not
write out the key signature for harmonic minor even if the piece is in
that key.

[Alain Naigeon]

Interesting comments..., this said, AFAIK the OP never came back
to acknowledge the answers :-(

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Alain Naigeon
Interesting comments..., this said, AFAIK the OP never came back
to acknowledge the answers :-(

It mostly to see if the ng can back alive again. :-)

[e7m]

Post by Alain Naigeon
Interesting comments..., this said, AFAIK the OP never came back
to acknowledge the answers :-(
--
Français *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
http://fr.youtube.com/user/AlainNaigeon

hello alain,
good to see a post even if it is a "blast from the past"!
I may be optimistic but It looks as though the old group might be starting to operate again. I hope you will take a look again and join in. I always enjoyed your posts and I am anxious to see what you have been doing.

LJS
element7music.com

[J.B. Wood]

Post by Hans Aberg

Post by J.B. Wood

Post by Hans Aberg
It is the key, not the key signature, that establishes those things, as
there examples where the latter differs from the former. I do not recall
the example, but say a piece in D major might be written with the key
signature of G major, putting in accidentals as needed in the body.
Engravers may change that, so one has to go back to the original.

Hello, and while an argument can be made for that it generally isn't
done for an entire work unless the composer intends to modulate to other
keys during certain passages. And in those instances of course the
required number of accidentals are used as appropriate. Sincerely,

The case I had mind was in a different key than the written key
signature, not merely temporarily changing. Also, one usually does not
write out the key signature for harmonic minor even if the piece is in
that key.

Hello, and at least for 18th & 19th century practice a work is either in
a major or minor key. There is no "harmonic minor key" or "melodic
minor key" in the name of the work. With no examination of the relevant
sheet music "Piano Concerto No. _ in _ minor") would refer to the
relative (natural) minor scale associated with the key signature. But
the natural minor (meaning ascending and descending) isn't used and
passages requiring the harmonic or melodic minor scales would use
accidentals (sharps, flats or naturals) as required. Sincerely,

[Hans Aberg]

Post by J.B. Wood

Post by Hans Aberg

Post by J.B. Wood

Post by Hans Aberg
It is the key, not the key signature, that establishes those things, as
there examples where the latter differs from the former. I do not recall
the example, but say a piece in D major might be written with the key
signature of G major, putting in accidentals as needed in the body.
Engravers may change that, so one has to go back to the original.

Hello, and while an argument can be made for that it generally isn't
done for an entire work unless the composer intends to modulate to other
keys during certain passages. And in those instances of course the
required number of accidentals are used as appropriate. Sincerely,

The case I had mind was in a different key than the written key
signature, not merely temporarily changing. Also, one usually does not
write out the key signature for harmonic minor even if the piece is in
that key.

Hello, and at least for 18th & 19th century practice a work is either in
a major or minor key. There is no "harmonic minor key" or "melodic
minor key" in the name of the work. With no examination of the relevant
sheet music "Piano Concerto No. _ in _ minor") would refer to the
relative (natural) minor scale associated with the key signature. But
the natural minor (meaning ascending and descending) isn't used and
passages requiring the harmonic or melodic minor scales would use
accidentals (sharps, flats or naturals) as required. Sincerely,

Those names are normally not set by the composer, just as you don't name
by tempo.