Discussion:
Who is author?
(too old to reply)
Vilen
2011-06-21 10:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Who is author of USA names for degrees of diatonic scale? I didn't
find the answer in Internet although it is interesting. By comparison
of American and German degrees' names (invented by H.Riemann) is
striking that German ones are guided on major triads and American
ones- on melody ties thank to pitch nearness or third harmonic (tonic-
dominant, tonic-subdominant, mediant- submediant). Is here the
influence of H.Schenker?

Best Regards
Yuri Vilenkin
Tom K.
2011-06-21 23:56:05 UTC
Permalink
"Vilen" wrote in message news:3af621f8-a3ee-470b-a2db-***@a31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

Who is author of USA names for degrees of diatonic scale? I didn't
find the answer in Internet although it is interesting. By comparison
of American and German degrees' names (invented by H.Riemann) is
striking that German ones are guided on major triads and American
ones- on melody ties thank to pitch nearness or third harmonic (tonic-
dominant, tonic-subdominant, mediant- submediant). Is here the
influence of H.Schenker?

Best Regards
Yuri Vilenkin


Interesting question, Yuri. Assuming you are referring to the concepts
described in this article;

http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/Papers/PubPapers/GermanHarmony.pdf

then I'd tend to agree that there seems to be a Schenkerian influence. But
are the supertonic, mediant and submediant terms for the secondary scale
degrees (^2, ^3, ^6) truly of American origin - or was there a previous
European version - possibly British?

One problem with describing ^3 as "Dominant Parallel" is that it assumes a V
function; but in the common I - iii - IV progression, the function is more
closely related to Tonic, not Dominant. Otherwise, I think Riemann was
correct to try and relate the functions of the ii, iii and vi chords to IV,
V and I respectively, but I think his labels are a bit misleading. For
example, what about the leading tone triad or 7th - is it simply an
incomplete V7 or V9? And what about the Plagal function?

Tom
Nonna Vilenkina
2011-06-22 04:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
Assuming you are referring to the concepts
described in this article
http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/Papers/PubPap...
Dear Tom,
thank You for the useful link. It isn't encountered me.
Yuri
Vilen
2011-06-24 09:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Who is author of USA names for degrees of diatonic scale?  I didn't
find the answer in Internet although it is interesting. By comparison
of American and German degrees' names (invented by H.Riemann) is
striking  that German ones  are guided on major triads and American
ones- on melody ties thank to pitch nearness or third harmonic (tonic-
dominant, tonic-subdominant, mediant- submediant). Is here the
influence of  H.Schenker?
Best Regards
Yuri Vilenkin
Interesting question, Yuri. Assuming you are referring to the concepts
described in this article;
http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/Papers/PubPap...
then I'd tend to agree that there seems to be a Schenkerian influence.  But
are the supertonic, mediant and submediant terms for the secondary scale
degrees (^2, ^3, ^6) truly of American origin - or was there a previous
European version - possibly British?
One problem with describing ^3 as "Dominant Parallel" is that it assumes a V
function; but in the common I - iii - IV progression, the function is more
closely related to Tonic, not Dominant.  Otherwise, I think Riemann was
correct to try and relate the functions of the ii, iii and vi chords to IV,
V and I respectively, but I think his labels are a bit misleading.  For
example, what about the leading tone triad or 7th - is it simply an
incomplete V7 or V9?  And what about the Plagal function?
Tom
Dear Tom,
sorry,I have before missed the place in the Wikipedia article
"Diatonic function" where the books of W.Piston, A. Forte and
G.Delamont mentioned. These names were mentioned in the former
discussions in this group too. In particular, inYour correspondence
with Goldstein ( book of G.Delamont) . It seems to me that all this
stuff confirm my supposition about influence of H.Schenker.
Concerning that article of Gjerdingen is curious that in spite of the
title it contains very little information about the theme.

Best Regards
Yuri Vilenkin
Tom K.
2011-06-24 17:27:43 UTC
Permalink
"Vilen" wrote in message news:1158c6d8-086a-4266-af6b-***@j31g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

Dear Tom,
sorry,I have before missed the place in the Wikipedia article
"Diatonic function" where the books of W.Piston, A. Forte and
G.Delamont mentioned. These names were mentioned in the former
discussions in this group too. In particular, inYour correspondence
with Goldstein ( book of G.Delamont) . It seems to me that all this
stuff confirm my supposition about influence of H.Schenker.
Concerning that article of Gjerdingen is curious that in spite of the
title it contains very little information about the theme.

Best Regards
Yuri Vilenkin

Yuri,

My recollection is that Piston doesn't put much emphasis on linking the
"secondary" (ii, ii, vi, viio) chords with the "primary" (I, IV, V) ones to
arrive at three main harmonic functions as per Riemann and (IIRC) Delamont -
although he does distinguish between "Tonal (1,2,4,5) and Modal (3,6,7)
scale degrees and suggests that when writing a 1st inversion triad in a 4
voice context, composers normally doubled a tonal scale degree. As the
Forte book is strongly Schenker oriented, it mentions (for example) the ii
as substituting for IV as a "Dominant Prep", but Forte then strongly points
out the strong ascending 4th root movement between ii and V.

Personally, I find both approaches important and when I was teaching
harmony, I found the three basic harmonic functions of Tonic (stable),
Dominant (directed toward tonic) and Dominant Prep (directed toward
dominant) to be very compelling. The "secondary" chords would normally fall
into one of the primary function classes - except for the iii chord in
major, which could be considered as dominant function when moving to vi, but
tonic function when moving to IV. (Forte accounts for the iii~IV
progression as a melodic embellishment of I - this sounds like Schenker
terminology for a Riemann concept to me, but it's all good!) Also, it was
useful for the student to realize that a secondary chord could not proceed
to it's primary in the same function class (i.e. ii~IV, vi~I, etc.) where
the Schenker (and Piston, IIRC) approach would be to discourage most root
movements of an ascending third. But when faced with 6/4 chords or other
decorative chord successions, I was also quick to indicate their melodic
origins and generally used the Benjamin, Horvit, Nelson approach of labeling
them as one of 4 types of "linear" (embellishing) chords: passing,
neighboring, appoggiatura and suspension.

I had long ago forgotten that our American (British?) scale degree naming
conventions were not universal. Thanks for pointing that out.

Tom
LJS
2011-06-25 13:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom K.
My recollection is that Piston doesn't put much emphasis on linking the
"secondary" (ii, ii [sic], vi, viio) chords with the "primary" (I, IV, V) >ones to
I realize this is just a typo. but I had to point it out to comment
that I don't recall the viio as being other than a substitute for the
V. Someone, I thought Piston (but could be mistaken) referred to this
chord as an incomplete V7 as that is its usual function (see next
comment) and if in the rare other times that this chord would go
someplace else, it would have been noted either to its function in
that particular instance or, most likely, as an embellishment chord of
some kind. I don't recall any vii -> iii chords being part of the
typical CPP normal progression (possibly in a cyclic 5th progression
during a common chord modulation) and as noted elsewhere, going to a
ii or from a V chord, was discouraged in the CPP era although they
could be used quite easily and accounted for in more modern music were
instead of a tonal functional movement, it could be used for a color
changing movement in a stable or "tonic" type of environment and could
be useful in a non functional sense to change the mood of the
composition while not suggesting functional movement.

... when I was teaching
Post by Tom K.
harmony, I found the three basic harmonic functions of Tonic (stable),
Dominant (directed toward tonic) and Dominant Prep (directed toward
dominant) to be very compelling.  The "secondary" chords would normally fall
into one of the primary function classes - except for the iii chord in
major, which could be considered as dominant function when
moving to vi, but
tonic function when moving to IV.
We always considered this to be summed up better with the
Classification as 1st class = dominant function or unstable, 2nd class
= proceeding to dominant function and of course Tonic being the more
stable. This simplified the nomenclature (although some used the
terminology of Tonic, Dominant and SubDominant function when
considering CPP functional harmony) when comparing "function" of the
harmony once the ties of CPP was broken. In my own educational
philosophy, I consider this approach as "preparation" for the student
to understand the "exceptions" to the CPP when considering the
function of more modern harmonic progression.

It also gives a connection to the harmony that is a result of
counterpoint in the earlier periods.

In general, we took a more universal approach to describing function.
The subtle differences of the various meanings of the old names made
discussion using them more complicated than necessary and served no
useful purpose.
Post by Tom K.
Also, it was useful for the student to realize that a secondary chord could not proceed
to it's primary in the same function class (i.e. ii~IV, vi~I, etc.) where
the Schenker (and Piston, IIRC) approach would be to discourage most root
movements of an ascending third.  
We considered this a characteristic that was breaking the traditions
of the CPP as the Romantic Period evolved into the music of Debussy
and other more modern composers.




But when faced with 6/4 chords or other
Post by Tom K.
decorative chord successions, I was also quick to indicate their melodic
origins and generally used the Benjamin, Horvit, Nelson approach of labeling
them as one of 4 types of "linear" (embellishing) chords: passing,
neighboring, appoggiatura and suspension.
Certainly important to note the melodic implications and would be a
note if necessary for clarity in the Classification System I mentioned
above.
Post by Tom K.
I had long ago forgotten that our American (British?) scale degree naming
conventions were not universal.  Thanks for pointing that out.
Tom
LOL, you may have hit on the reason that McGee (our teacher) brought
this approach back from her teaching at the Paris Conservatory each
summer with Nadia. I got the impression that anything British was not
the automatically preferred approach by the French. LOL

Of course, I don't know if she had much faith in Schenker either.
Don't know if this is because he was German or because she didn't
quite buy into his system as bringing any clarity into the world of
theory. As I perceived the word from abroad, it just was limited in
its application in the harmonic sense and the melodic implications
were contained in the more traditional approach as well.
Personally, I consider his approach to be more useful in some
instances that outline his ideas and thus might help in describing the
music in those terms but that in other instances in music of the same
period, even the same composer and sometimes even in the same piece of
music, the Schenker system will then not be as apt to fit as well.

LJS
Tom K.
2011-06-27 19:01:15 UTC
Permalink
"LJS" wrote in message news:40720fae-9018-456f-9549-***@j31g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...


but I had to point it out to comment
that I don't recall the viio as being other than a substitute for the
V. Someone, I thought Piston (but could be mistaken) referred to this
chord as an incomplete V7 as that is its usual function (see next
comment) and if in the rare other times that this chord would go
someplace else, it would have been noted either to its function in
that particular instance or, most likely, as an embellishment chord of
some kind. I don't recall any vii -> iii chords being part of the
typical CPP normal progression (possibly in a cyclic 5th progression

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are correct. Piston (at least in my ancient edition) adopts the view
that the viio is most often an incomplete V7 and that the viio7 = V9.
Although he does quote a Bach example (viio7~ii~vi7~ii) and says it
"partakes of nondominant characteristics when it proceeds to iii." However,
this seems to me to be a poorly chosen example as it is sequential, not a
true, stand alone viio~iii progression. Perhaps Mark deVoto has since
fixed it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, I don't know if she had much faith in Schenker either.
Don't know if this is because he was German or because she didn't
quite buy into his system as bringing any clarity into the world of
theory. As I perceived the word from abroad, it just was limited in
its application in the harmonic sense and the melodic implications
were contained in the more traditional approach as well.
Personally, I consider his approach to be more useful in some
instances that outline his ideas and thus might help in describing the
music in those terms but that in other instances in music of the same
period, even the same composer and sometimes even in the same piece of
music, the Schenker system will then not be as apt to fit as well.

LJS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trying to rigidly apply all of Schenker's ideas to all tonal pieces is often
somewhat problematical. But a few of his observations stand out as being
almost always very useful, such as his concept of structural levels and his
insistence on the interrelationship of melody and harmony.

Tom
LJS
2011-07-01 01:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by LJS
but I had to point it out to comment
that I don't recall the viio as being other than a substitute for the
V. Someone, I thought Piston (but could be mistaken) referred to this
chord as an incomplete V7 as that is its usual function (see next
comment) and if in the rare other times that this chord would go
someplace else, it would have been noted either to its function in
that particular instance or, most likely, as an embellishment chord of
some kind. I don't recall any vii -> iii chords being part of the
typical CPP normal progression (possibly in a cyclic 5th progression
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------
You are correct.  Piston (at least in my ancient edition) adopts the view
that the viio is most often an incomplete V7 and that the viio7 = V9.
Although he does quote a Bach example (viio7~ii~vi7~ii) and says it
"partakes of nondominant characteristics when it proceeds to iii."  However,
this seems to me to be a poorly chosen example as it is sequential, not a
true, stand alone viio~iii progression.   Perhaps Mark deVoto has since
fixed it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------
Of course, I don't know if she had much faith in Schenker either.
Don't know if this is because he was German or because she didn't
quite buy into his system as bringing any clarity into the world of
theory. As I perceived the word from abroad, it just was limited in
its application in the harmonic sense and the melodic implications
were contained in the more traditional approach as well.
Personally, I consider his approach to be more useful in some
instances that outline his ideas and thus might help in describing the
music in those terms but that in other instances in music of the same
period, even the same composer and sometimes even in the same piece of
music, the Schenker system will then not be as apt to fit as well.
LJS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------
Trying to rigidly apply all of Schenker's ideas to all tonal pieces is often
somewhat problematical.  But a few of his observations stand out as being
almost always very useful, such as his concept of structural levels and his
insistence on the interrelationship of melody and harmony.
Tom
of course. Sorry if I was completely clear. He had some good things to
say, but not enough to justify a complete approach to theory. It just
doesn't hold up unless the music is approached in a particular way
that follows his "theories"

the rest was just some German/French humor (?) on the conflict of
these two cultures! I made the mistake once asking for directions in
Strasbourg in French as my German is not very good (neither is my
French but it is better than my German) and needless to say, I
eventually had to get a map!

But Nothing against Schencker, but after reading his theory, I would
say that it compared in some ways to the infomercial approach as does
Russell and Jazz theory. Both have good ideas, but neither lives up
the the hype they make about being a universal answer to analysis.

Good to hear from you through all this crap on the site,

LJS

Loading...